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Is this Really So about SOY? *******

1K views 27 replies 13 participants last post by  Mike NoLomotil 
#1 ·
I have look on several sites regarding what is written here,and what an eyeopener it is! Does this article in your opinion or expertise,have vality?
What do we really know? http://www.westonaprice.org/soy_alert.htm
 
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#2 ·
I think it hypes the dangers.OTOH eating soy based foods is different than taking concentrated soy isoflavones like found in some supplements. One of the problems of western thought is if food X is good lets extract it and concentrate it and take pills rather than eat well. The dose makes the poison. For most things, some is good but too much is bad.Soy has been included in the oreintal diet for a really long time, so I believe that soy as a food is safe. However like most things concentrated supplements may be a way to get way too much of a good thing.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html
 
#3 ·
Thanks K! Regarding the food as opposed to the concentrated form. But I wonder about, my soy! I wear the estradiol patch (for menopause,which is soy based! I wonder how that differs in chemistry-whether one wears a patch that isa derived from x as opposd to Y? Hmmm?
 
#4 ·
As K said, soy has been a part of oriental diets for a long time. And those women have far less osteoporosis, something some people have linked to their lesser consumption of animal proteins, which inhibit the absorption of calcium (and studies have been done which confirm this). So soy is a good source of protein if you want calcium, etc. Phytoestrogens can be beneficial to post-menopausal women, but have not been shown to affect girls' or womens' hormones. I referenced some medical journal studies on these topics for a paper in college a couple of years ago.I notice some of the references from that page you linked to, and other links on that site, are from the same kind of sources... kind of like if I was writing an article, I wouldn't quote nothing but the PETA newsletter and IDA (In Defense of Animals) info... gotta have balanced sources.
 
#5 ·
I am wondering now,if and where I can read studies regarding soy. In this and other articles, they speak of photoestrogens involving disorders of the thyroid...Hmmmm?I have to see what I can find on this-I thought the alternative for estrogen replacement, would be good coming from a food source! I have to find out what is in my patch exactly and I believe it is not a hormone,but acts as one, filling the receptors sites of where the hormone estrogen would be? Whats a girl to do!
 
#7 ·
The health benefits of Soy are also very well documented. Neither the Soy is the miracle food that will save your life hype nor the soy is the great evil and if you eat it you will die hype is true. Like everything else on the planet it is both a good thing and a bad thing. Eating foods made with soy is probably a good thing, but concentrating stuff into pills is potentially problematic. No "miracle" is without it't troubles. That's why MODERATION is the key. Water and Salt are deadly in the right (or wrong) concentrations. The first rule of toxicology: The dose makes the poison. Going nutty and eating huge amounts of soy or taking huge amounts of soy supplements is not a wise thing (and alot of people in the natural supplements seem to believe is some is good more and more and more can only be better which is a total crock). However including moderate amounts of soy in the diet on a regular basis may be a healthy thing to do for certain common diseases.Also not all of the 72 references are "soy is bad" references. Some of them are, but some of them are things you would reference in a soy is good article as well.from www.quackwatch.com
quote: Soy. Soy has been in the spotlight during the 1990s. Not only is soy a high quality protein, as assessed by the FDA's "Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score" method, it is now thought to play preventive and therapeutic roles in cardiovascular disease (CVD), cancer, osteoporosis, and the alleviation of menopausal symptoms.The cholesterol-lowering effect of soy is the most well-documented physiological effect. A 1995 meta-analysis of 38 separate studies (involving 743 subjects) found that the consumption of soy protein resulted in significant reductions in total cholesterol (9.3%), LDL cholesterol (12.9%), and triglycerides (10.5%), with a small but insignificant increase (2.4%) in high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol (Anderson et al., 1995). Linear regression analysis indicated that the threshold level of soy intake at which the effects on blood lipids became significant was 25 g. Regarding the specific component responsible for the cholesterol-lowering effect of soy, recent attention has focused on the isoflavones (Potter, 1998). Isoflavones, however, were not effective in lowering cholesterol in two recent studies (Hodgson et al., 1998; Nestle et al., 1997). The exact mechanism by which soy exerts its hypocholesterolemic effect has not been fully elucidated.On May 4, 1998, Protein Technologies International (PTI, St. Louis, Mo.) petitioned the FDA for a health claim on soy protein containing products pertaining to reduced risk of CHD. Based on an effective daily level of 25 g soy protein, PTI proposed that the amount of soy protein required to qualify an individual food to bear the health claim is 6.25 g with a minimum of 12.5 mg of total isoflavones (aglycone form) per reference amount customarily consumed. On August 12, the FDA accepted PTI's petition and is in the process of formulating a proposed rule.Several classes of anticarcinogens have been identified in soybeans, including protease inhibitors, phytosterols, saponins, phenolic acids, phytic acid, and isoflavones (Messina and Barnes, 1991). Of these, isoflavones (genistein and daidzein) are particularly noteworthy because soybeans are the only significant dietary source of these compounds. Isoflavones are heterocyclic phenols structurally similar to the estrogenic steroids. Because they are weak estrogens, isoflavones may act as antiestrogens by competing with the more potent, naturally-occurring endogenous estrogens (e.g., 17b-estradiol) for binding to the estrogen receptor. This may explain why populations that consume significant amounts of soy (e.g., Southeast Asia) have reduced risk of estrogen-dependent cancer. However, the epidemiological data on soy intake and cancer risk are inconsistent at the present time (Messina et al., 1997). To date, there are no published clinical intervention trials investigating the role of soy in reducing cancer risk.Soy may also benefit bone health (Anderson and Garner, 1997). A recent clinical study involving 66 post-menopausal women conducted at the University of Illinois (Erdman and Potter, 1997) found that 40 g isolated soy protein (ISP) per day (containing 90 mg total isoflavones) significantly increased (approximately 2%) both bone mineral content and density in the lumbar spine after 6 months. The theory that soy may alleviate menopausal symptoms was prompted by the observation that Asian women report significantly lower levels of hot flushes and night sweats compared to Western women. Most recently, 60 grams of ISP daily for 3 months reduced hot flashes by 45% in 104 postmenopausal women (Albertazzi et al., 1998). Although these ob-servations are exciting, there is a significant placebo effect in these studies, and it is too premature to suggest that soy may substitute for hormone replace-ment therapy.
K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 03-28-2001).]
 
#9 ·
Among the population of patients demonstrating clinical symptoms of immunologic loss of tolerance for foods or additives ("cellular immune response") [among Americans tested] whole-soy was implicated in about 35% of those patients as one of the foods that elicits the abnormal cellular immune response. Of those patients the data shows soy evokes a very strong cellular response in about 11%.Soy is also one of several sources of lecithin used as an additive. Lecitihin itself showed up reactive in about 25% of the test-positive patients and about 7% exhibit a strong cellular reaction.So, if the test population is representative of the US population as whole, you can expect that those numbers approximate frequency across the board within the population of food-reactive patients, making it one of the more common substances that persons lose tolerance to so that context should be kept in mind.I do not know the frequency of humoral immune response. I will try to take time to check and see if anyone doing "allergy" has published anything about that (frequency).As to the other claims, I have forwarded that site address to two immunologists to ask for their opinion on the claims made.If they have time to reply I will let you know what their opionins are about the information on that site.Eat Well. Think Well. Be Well.MNL________________ www.leapallergy.com
 
#10 ·
I sure hope this is bogus! I have two of these: http://www.naturespath.com/asp/prodinfo.asp?prodid=80 soy toaster waffles every morning. I used to eat this company's flax waffles, but when they switched from making the flax using seeds sprinkled on versus flaxmeal in the waffle, I had to pass on those. These soy waffles do include the isoflavones (big bold type on the cover), though...I wonder if that's the reason why I felt better eating the flax variety from this company. I haven't been the same since the switch. I've never been certain why. Recently, I tried adding flaxmeal back to my diet with: http://www.spectrumnaturals.com/essenfiber.html each morning. So far it hasn't hurt anything like psyllium did (too much extra gas), but I haven't really seemed to feel better yet either after a couple weeks worth of use.fiberously yours,SteveE
 
#12 ·
TREE PERSON:I looked at the clock and have to run to Boca Raton today, so I cannot give a detailed account yet of the oral dissertation I received last night from an experienced (30 years) research immunologist who studied the information in question on "Shocking Soy!"I can maybe come back tomorrow and give a summary of what he said but these phrases will help you characterize and envision his reactions to the posted information on soy:1. ROFL2. Cow pies3. Potentially harmful4. Irrational conclusionsGota go...but that is a "kind" characterization of the reaction to the data and conclusions set forth.Eat Well. Think Well. Be Well. MNL_____________ www.leapallergy.com OH PS:Add "Unobjective" to the list[This message has been edited by Mike NoLomotil (edited 03-29-2001).]
 
#13 ·
I have been consuming soy products for quite some time. I have come to the point where I make sure I only consume them in moderation, though. In a book I've been reading, the authors states that soymilk isn't the best way to get the benefits of soy ('course, I'd been drinking a bit of soymilk each day!). I've heard that before too. Tofu is supposed to be better but, again, not the best apparent way to get the benefits of soy. 'Course, there's the thyroid agrument (that soy, or maybe soy in excess, may cause thyroid problems for some). Also, there's the argument that Asians have been consuming soy all their lives but that we "suddenly" start consuming it, naively expecting to realize the same benefits that the Asians may have realized. Yes, and then there's the sensitivity factor. (Earlier, I tested OK for soy, but I wonder if one can build up a sensitivity to it?)So, again, yes, it's soy in moderation for me now! (Haven't yet quite determined what moderation means for me though.)
 
#14 ·
What a timely post for me...I have been racking my brains trying to figure out what I could be having a reaction to. I have the worst case of eczema on my hands and have had it for almost one month. I am trying to think of something that I am doing/ingesting that might be causing this. I know it can be anything but then I began to wonder about the soy that is in a protein shake that I take every morning. I guess I don't know how I can find out for sure other than stop taking it and see what happens. I also take thyroid for hypo and now I am wondering that I really need to talk to my Dr. about this protein shake and the thyroid connection as well. Also, does anyone know about the testing for food allergies and what is the best route to go. I need to do this because since last year it seems as though I am finding myself more and more allergic to things and having more allergic reactions. We went to an auction last Saturday and they had this rug room with rugs from India etc. and when I left and walked outside and got into the car I couldn't breathe. It was so frightening -- it started to appear like the reaction I had when I was bit by the ant last October and had a reaction to it that sent me to the ER. Fortunately after a few minutes and getting fresh air by driving with the window open -- I began to feel better. I swear it was something that was in that room with the rugs -- sounds weird I know but it happened. [This message has been edited by RitaLucy (edited 03-29-2001).]
 
#17 ·
Dust, dust mites, and pollen are all very common things to find in rugs, and this all gets into the air when the rugs get moved around much like they would at showroom/warehouse type setting.Libraries often bother me as books collect dust.You may want to go in for a scratch test and see what environmental things are setting you off. I did that and the allergy shots I'm taking are doing a really good job at keeping the reactions to dust and pollens under control.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html
 
#18 ·
RITA:I just saw that you asked:"Also, does anyone know about the testing for food allergies and what is the best route to go. I need to do this because since last year it seems as though I am finding myself more and more allergic to things and having more allergic reactions."I would not be so sure of what the causal relationship until I had "true allergy" ruled out by an allergist since we are talking about eczema here...assuming the diagnosis is spot-on.The skin prick testing is reasonably accurate for the things K lists like environamentals and inhalants. If you are testing for food response it is at best 50-50. So I have a quarter you can toss for each food on a 100 food list, write down HEADS or TAILS as you prefer for yes or no, then try a diet and see what happens. The quarter you can use for free, and it does not pinch.However, some allergists will do intradermal provocation if they assess you and see there is minimal chance of anaphylaxis...in which case they ahve to be ready to take immediate action. I.D. provocation is much more accurate for foods. In the US most allergists, because of this risk, will use in vitro assays like RAST or ELISA to check for Ig[x] specific to a food.Just understand that if you test-positive it does not mean you are allergic. It basically means you are potentially sensitized and the positives should be confirmed with oral challenge. If it is an allergy, oral challenge is easy since the capsule-dose challenges are more than sufficient to evoke a response for "true" allergies.So this is the first step to rule-out those mechanisms before thinking about the other mechanisms. With eczema I do think most would say rule out the real allergy first before looking at alternative mechanismsMNL_____________ www.leapallergy.com
 
#19 ·
MNL,and those interested in soy, Trying to eliminate lecithin from my daughter"s diet has lead me to realise that Soy lecithin is in an incredibly large number of foods.Even for people not allergic or sensitive to soy food or lecithin it is a worry to see that so many foods are being "filled" or emulsified with this product. Even good quality chocolate has it in.In fact there are NO snack foods without it. A bit difficult for a 17 year old who needs to take a packed lunch, although we are doing well so far.gilly
 
#21 ·
[2] good points you both made [GILLED-PERSON and MIGRATORY CELESTIAL SPHEREOID]: Soy has become pervasive so thos people who do react to it, to lecithin, to any lectin, etc. are faced with a daunting task to avoid exposure. And the degree to which GM Soy will ultimately effect what % of the population will become more evident each year, as this year the % of total hectares of soybean planted with RoundupReady soybeans will jump to over 60% in the USA.Corn is the same thing....pervasive and almost impossible to avoid.While the article in question in some areas goes beyond rational thinking by forming conclusions based on circumstance, ignoring other elements of certain equations that can effect the outcomes attributed to killer soy, this should not detract from the core truth that not enough attention is paid to the downside of soy and soy products for a certain portion of the population thay will be made ill. A large portion of that population can be found within the populations identified as suffering IBS and other disorders whose symptoms can be linked to various food or chemical sensitivities.Eat well. Think well. Be well.MNL______________ www.leapallergy.com
 
#22 ·
This has been an interesting discussion and an interesting topic.From my own personal perspective I have been eating tofu and soy products since 1984. I am hypothyroid (1999) but so was my mother, father and brother (they ate no soy at all). I did manage to go through menopause without one hot flash and experienced no adverse symptoms at all. I eat it about 1-3 times a weeks. I don't drink soy milk because I like rice milk better. I cannot say that I have experienced any unpleasant symptoms from ingesting this. I was diagnosed with colons problems in 1959, long before I ever heard of soy.
 
#23 ·
This all seems so very complicated to me...I can't imagine how one can rule out what allergies one has to foods without eating one food all by itself and see what happens. There are too many things in foods to know for sure what the allergy is from. Maybe it just sounds overwhelming or maybe it is the best diet one can go on as they waste away trying to figure out what they are allergic to.My eczema is only on my hands and it tends to run it bouts; it completely goes away for a long period of time. It makes me wonder if it is something seasonal or maybe even a cleaning product that I am exposed to now and then or something I eat just now and then. Last spring while we were on vacation I had a horrible reaction to something I was ingesting or being exposed to on a cruise. We ate alot of seafood and I broke out in a rash on my arms, legs, and the eczema like rash on my hands. I guess I had a lot of histamine at that time is what they told me. Seafood allergy! I also seem to have a reaction (an itchy rash) the 1st time I am exposed to any real heat with the sun. My Dr. told me that actually it is the sun that brings out the allergy reaction even more. I always thought I was allergic to the first exposure of sun I was getting!Anyway, I am going to go and get a referral to an allergist this week and I plan on doing my homework before I get an appointment so I can be sure they are doing the right tests etc.Thanks for the info.MNL: thanks for the link![This message has been edited by RitaLucy (edited 04-02-2001).]
 
#24 ·
Eczema, especially on the hands can be due to all sorts of things that your hands get exposed to, including cleaning solutions, and even just the hands getting washed frequently. I even reacted to a certain leather watch band. They thought it was nickel from the watch backing, but it tested negative for that and the distribution was exactly where the leather was (it was leather and mesh).So diet may or may not be playing any role in the eczema, but eczema is a common way that food allergies show up. I believe generally when it is a food allergy the eczema shows up in alot of places not just the hands.K.
 
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#26 ·
I've been doing some research on MSG, and found that apparently that soy proten, soy sauce extract, soy sauce, soy protein isolate (whatever that is) and soy protein concentrate all very often contain MSG. Would that be the problem? Would someone a little more informed than me comment on this? I eat a lot of soy based products.
 
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