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After 5 Relapses - Now CURED! Here's how


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#121 frantic1980

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 11:47 AM

But if the underlying problem is Bacteria, then surely antibiotics are the solution? You really confuse me - nothing you say makes any sense.

#122 Kathleen M.

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 01:26 PM

There are two parts to the equation.1. What kills bacteria vs2. Which bacteria you get recolonized with.Even if you kill off every single intestinal bacteria in your entire body including the back ups you keep in the appendix (the new reason they found for having one) you will very quickly recolonize (and hopefully not with the ones that cause botulism that infants can be paralyzed or even killed by if you feed them the wrong thing before they get enough to keep those really nasty bacteria out).Why let chance decide what you get. What is new may be worse than the ones you had. Probiotics at least make sure you get a good dose of bacteria that reduce gas volume and seem to have some clinical data to help prevent the recurrence of SIBO.I don't know if Pimentel is as strongly anti-probiotic as he was back when he wrote the book seven years ago. I thought someone that saw him in the last couple of years had posted that he can see that sometimes they can help with extending the remission. There has been a lot of research since the book and I wouldn't take it as the unchanging gospel and there is nothing else to be discovered. (and I'm really not motivated to go searching for the post now, but it did stick out as it was different than what the book seemed to suggest)The problem is NO ONE on the planet really has the whole picture of what is going on with the colonic flora or what happens in SIBO.So there really isn't any basis to say someone is completely and totally wrong as both sides have a point and it may be worth agreeing to disagree.If probiotics make you worse DO NOT TAKE THEM. If they make you better TAKE THEM.Surely that is a middle ground we can all agree on? right?We have lots of anecdotal and some clinical evidence that some people are helped by probiotics and some people are not and plenty of anecdotal evidence here a lot of people are much worse after antibiotics even though some people are helped.I'm not going to swap out my probiotics for antibiotics since the probiotics ARE working for me and I want to avoid getting really full up with antibiotic resistant bacteria.
My story of beating IBS: My Story with IBS
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#123 IanRamsay

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 02:33 PM

I agree.What works for some people dosent work for others, as i saud earlier in this thread several times. everyone has to try everything untill they fiond something that works. i am biased towards bacteria because its what i do, but i also have to keep an open mind to some degree because i have seen some truely strange things in teh last 12 years doing what i do, and some of them defy explanation simply because sometimes, things dont do the things that they are supposed to. if you have found somethin that works for you that is awsome, power to you, i just think advising people to bin their probiotics because they dont work is wrong. Then again people will make up their own minds in the end anyway, reguardless of what any one else says, because we are human.life is amazing.Ian
Emetophobic since 1987, IBS A (More C) since 1990, Chronic GERD + Chronic Gastritis since 1987. When people say it cant get any worse, i say at least you are still breathing! Keep the faith. Currently in remission thanks to specific strain probiotics and 12 years of probiotic reaserch.

#124 M&M

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 10:33 PM

This seems like the perfect place to end this particular discussion. Sometimes, once it's clear that no one is going to change their mind on an issue, it's best to just agree to disagree. (Even though we sometimes feel very passionately about something, especially if it worked for us.) Let's all call a truce, and move on to different threads! :(
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Illness is not something to feel ashamed of. It is not a sign of misfortune or defeat. Suffering is the fuel of wisdom, and it opens the way to happiness. Through illness, human beings can gain insight into the meaning of life, understand its value and dignity, and strive to lead more fulfilling lives. ~ Daisaku Ikeda



In life, it's not the bad things we do that hurt us, it's the good things we don't do. ~ Shmuley Boteach


#125 IanRamsay

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 04:20 AM

Fair enough.Ian
Emetophobic since 1987, IBS A (More C) since 1990, Chronic GERD + Chronic Gastritis since 1987. When people say it cant get any worse, i say at least you are still breathing! Keep the faith. Currently in remission thanks to specific strain probiotics and 12 years of probiotic reaserch.

#126 MarcoITA

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 05:22 AM

This seems like the perfect place to end this particular discussion. Sometimes, once it's clear that no one is going to change their mind on an issue, it's best to just agree to disagree. (Even though we sometimes feel very passionately about something, especially if it worked for us.) Let's all call a truce, and move on to different threads! smile.png
I disagree. Purpose of a discussion would be also to give details and find possible explanations... not just trying to change someone's mind. I think a discussion should last until someone has something to say, which would be useful to others. I really find useful the things Ian and frantic1980  have said here. You're the Moderator: with all due respect, it'b be better trying to "moderate" discussions than trying to stopping them... sad.png Kathleen's point is very interesting too ("Why let chance decide what kind of bacteria you get?") and, if you allow, it would be wonderful to know if frantic1980 has an answer to this. So... please, let's keep this thread "alive". It could be very useful to many people. Thanks a lot. Marco

#127 Kathleen M.

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 06:00 AM

Well some people never, ever, stop talking and we've had threads that devolve into endless arguments with dozens of pages of nothing but the same thing over and over with just a couple of posters going back and forth.Unfortunately sometimes those get into personal attacks (which are very much against the terms of service of the board) and sometimes become much more upsetting than helpful to most members even if they stay relatively civil. I hate for people to leave the board because they don't like the endless debates and we have lost several from that in the past.http://www.ibsgroup.org/tos Terms of Service LinkSure some people like to pull out the popcorn and watch two people go at it for weeks, months, or years (and trust me, some people never get tired of saying the same thing over and over). However most people are here looking for help and that can get in the way.We generally ask people to agree to disagree and move on (and answer questions rather than mostly debate who has the right approach and why the other person's view just can't work) when we start getting to a point where the thread seems to be getting into a situation that could go into endless debate mode we try to ask people to let it go rather than wait for several more pages of the same sort of thing (and we have a mention of not doing that sort of thing in the posting guidelines)http://www.ibsgroup....showtopic=81175 Link to Posting Guidelines.We've had a few very rabid debaters here that upset a lot of users who come here for help and not to watch a couple of people unable to agree with each other. Often it does devolve into making the other person see you have the only correct view than a discussion of the points and looking for the common ground or even answering questions about one's own view. We have seen this happen a few times over the years. :(I'm not sure how you want us to moderate the discussion. People generally find a locked thread if people can't end it on their own preferable to us dictating what people should say directly or editing every last post to keep the thread on topic and the discussion productive. That being said, we are happy when people report what works for them, just remember that your answer is not the one and only answer for all people and allow other people to report their experiences as well.
My story of beating IBS: My Story with IBS
Ph.D in Biology

#128 MarcoITA

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 08:29 AM

Well some people never, ever, stop talking and we've had threads that devolve into endless arguments with dozens of pages of nothing but the same thing over and over with just a couple of posters going back and forth.
This is not the case. For example I've learnt, one page back and not dozens of page back, that in Pimentel's theory bacteria producing methane are linked to IBS-C and bacteria producing hydrogen are linked to IBS-D. That seems important to me and maybe it's important if you're going to do a Lactulose Breath Test.

Sure some people like to pull out the popcorn and watch two people go at it for weeks, months, or years (and trust me, some people never get tired of saying the same thing over and over). However most people are here looking for help and that can get in the way.
Yes. Some people do and some people don't. I'm here to try to understand and share experience of MY Ibs with other people.

I'm not sure how you want us to moderate the discussion. People generally find a locked thread if people can't end it on their own preferable to us dictating what people should say directly or editing every last post to keep the thread on topic and the discussion productive.
It depends on the meaning you're giving to the word MODERATE. Moderation doesn't mean censorship if YOUR IDEA NOT = MY IDEA. Moderation doesn't mean I'm the Boss here and the thread will stop when I'll say "Stop!".

That being said, we are happy when people report what works for them...
Maybe. Or maybe not.Re-reading your first message in this thread (page 1) your tone doesn't seem very happy. It seems to be indeed rather hostile to frantic1980.("That being said, different things work for different people and if this works for you, thank you for sharing.").Kathleen, you probably forgot to say "Adios" to frantic1980, in that sentence... sad.png

#129 Thai

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 09:44 AM

Some time ago I wrote and complained about this thread as I found it EXTREMEMLY offensive.The language was attrocious and the accusations totally off the wall and disrespectful.I don't come here for this and I would think that most others do not either....there are surely many other places on the net for such vulgarity.Please go there and leave us alone!!!!When I come here, I should not have to open a thread to read the latest posts and be bombarded by this garbage.IMO, locking down this thread should have been done some time ago.Thai
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#130 frantic1980

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 12:24 PM

I agree that it is time to end the Probiotics/No Probiotics debate. It is getting extremely tiresome. I have asked Ian on many occassions to start another thread in the SIBO Forums about why probiotics work for him for SIBO and to start a discussion on this topic. I have already apologised to Ian for being hostile at one stage, but its been frustrating: I say one thing, he says another. I have also asked for some concrete scientific evidence why probiotics work but none has been provided - just confusing theories, contradicting himself on previous posts and back-tracking to defend his point. Nothing scientific. I don't agree that it is time to end discussion on this thread... aside from the tiresome debate on probiotics thre is still a lot of good stuff coming out of it.... a page back Marco has reported great results based on things he has read on this thread in particular the low-carbohydrate diet and abstaining from probiotics. Megyn has reported that she also found that yohurt nullified the effects of Xifaxan (and is abstaining from probiotics) - people are still learning from this thread, exchanging experiences and giving each other good advice therefore the thread is still producing valuable information. But the probiotics debate needs to end.Most people in this thread are following the Protocol developed by Dr Mark Pimentel; and in this protocol abstaining from probiotics is pretty fundamental to its success (I don't know if he has changed his stance on this since he wrote the book as you say Katherine - but I have no reason to believe so). People keep asking in other threads "why does it keep coming back".... "why do I relapse".... I believe people relapse because like I did 5 times I was putting the bacteria right back in after I killed it all off by taking probiotics.Ian: I respect your passion and enthusiasm for probiotics and bacteria, but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point, I do think it is time to end the probiotics/no-probiotics debate. You seem like a nice guy, and even after my being very hostile and personal in defending my stance you have done nothing but wish me well and for a lasting recovery, so once again I apologise to you and the other members for being out of line. I do believe your particular case is different to most people on here as you have said you have a leaky IC valve which causes a backwash of bacteria into your small intestine so I am not surprised that antibiotics do not give you lasting relief as you have a physiological problem in your intestines that really needs surgery to be corrected; antibiotics will never provide you with lasting relief as the bacteria will wash back again. So I respect that in your unique case probiotics are probably the only option for you.Almost everyone with IBS uses probiotics at one point - they do give great relief but Pimentel believes that although they provide relief they do prevent a complete cure. This is the only thread I have read on these boards that gives advice about staying away from probiotics to cure SIBO - and I believe that this makes it a valuable contribution to the collective knowledge of the board.

#131 Kathleen M.

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 01:08 PM

If it is on topic of what worked for the original poster, or questions about how to do something similar that is OK,If there is jsut going to be more back and forth about who does or doesn't make any sense to the other, that needs to stop and sometimes locking the thread has been the only thing that has stopped it in the past.From what I know of the feedback we get if we at any time ever do anything to anyone's posts that could be considered moderation in any manner it is always seen as censorship. That is why the Moderator team usually resorts to just locking a thread that goes too far. It is less trouble than trying to figure out what edits may or may not be acceptable.Luckily things have calm down a lot lately, and I'd like to see it stay that way :(I really don't have time to sit on this thread and decide which questions can be asked and who can respond to whom. If everyone is willing to set the debate portion aside and get back on topic also we should end the whole if you do or do not like how this site is or is not moderated that would be great as well. You can send something in private to Jeff if you think there is a better way, or find a site where the moderation suits you. We try to have a very light hand here, but sometimes we do feel we have to step in.
My story of beating IBS: My Story with IBS
Ph.D in Biology

#132 M&M

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 02:39 PM

I was not planning on closing this thread, but because of a few comments made since I posted, I'm closing it.When I said politely to move on to other threads it was not a suggestion. If you don't like the way any forum is moderated you are free to post somewhere else Marco. When you joined you agreed to the Terms Of Service. Having moderators is part of the agreement. If you disagree with any of the decisions made by the moderators you may leave at any time.This thread is now closed, and the topic is not up for debate. Now we can move on to other threads.
ME patient for the past 9 years


Illness is not something to feel ashamed of. It is not a sign of misfortune or defeat. Suffering is the fuel of wisdom, and it opens the way to happiness. Through illness, human beings can gain insight into the meaning of life, understand its value and dignity, and strive to lead more fulfilling lives. ~ Daisaku Ikeda



In life, it's not the bad things we do that hurt us, it's the good things we don't do. ~ Shmuley Boteach






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