[eric]

Douglas Garstang , just some more info, there are also 25 functional conditions that can overlap or where a person has symptoms that don't always fit into specific conditions, its possible about the CFAP ect and why the testing is so very important.The connection to the brain and the gut via endorphines and neurotransmitters is quite real and can be a source of problems or a contributing factor. http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/cfap.htm http://aboutibs.org/Publications/clinicalIssues.html http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/motility.htm These are some pet scans of IBS."Neuroimaging has provided evidence of physiological differences between normal individuals and those suffering from IBS in the way a visceral stimulus (ie, rectal distention) is processed in the brain.[14,15] Initial data from positron emission tomography (PET) scans demonstrated increased activation of the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) among normal individuals, comparedto IBS patients. The ACC is a cerebral cortical area that is rich in opiate receptors and is thought to be a major component of cognitive circuits relating to perception as well as descending spinal pathways involving pain. More recently, fMRI was used to demonstrate increased activity in the ACC, prefrontal (PF), and insular cortex areas, and in the thalamus of IBS patients compared to normal individuals."

 

[kamie]

Oh by the way Kari, after the last time I did my self in BIG TIME with the ever wonderful and health giving SOYI had to find a surgeon and go get a HYSTERECTOMY.Me too. The damage appears to be a rather permanent condition.So much for livin the lifestyle and eating healty.YEA!Kamie

 

[kamie]

By the way Douglas, that little incident I had with Soy....well that was another one of those instances in life where I get TOLD even today by the infinately more wise than me, that I don't know spit about soy and my "condition" was ALL IN MY MISINFORMED HEAD..........Yeh yeh talk to the Colon.The Uterus retired and got tossed in the trash.Well, at least the Bladder is still in Business.So hang in there.Kamie

 

[Mike NoLomotil]

Rita…Well at least he talked himself around full circle finally to where you wanted him to be…uh, I think so anywayDoug....I see you have another thread with more detail on your wild ride with chronic gut pain of indetermionate etiology...I will jump there and see what that is all about.Also, just to help keep things in perspctive, while imaging studies are very interesting in IBS vs controls, and are one of the several investigations that must be done, they have been done so far in a vacuum from investigators who are investigating systemic and local (gut) immune activation in IBS patients...up to and including specific mediator studies. And, of course, vice versa is also true...those investigators are studying systemic and local immune activation and isolating specific inflammatory mediator release and lookig at provojking events,(there are even people studying possible etioligies such as systemic immune activation linked to gut-local and systemic pathogen markers)...but each has not connected the dots to the other as of yet. Since we understand how immunologic as well as endocrine mediation of the CNS occurs, and vice versa, each group can only postulate (or pontificate as the case may be) on what is the chicken and what is the egg. The postulates vary as the perspectives of each group working independently vary.So until the vaccuum is overcome, what we can do is OBSERVE WHAT is happening in different parts of the system and then understand HOW it can influence physiology and thus generate symptoms, it is not yet possible to clearly elucidate WHY...the causal basis of the observed dysfunction. So even though we can address observed dysfunctions which generate symptoms and address them with prophylaxis (dietary intake therapy) or attenuation therapies (behavioral and pharmaceutical)we are still groping around with the different causes of the observed dysfuntion.One thing is for sure...nerves generally do not just, for lack of a better word "alter their own function" any more than granulocytes and lymphocytes and platelets and mast cells et al alter THEIR own function. There are specific means by which function is altered. When you isolate those you isolate cause and effect and then you have reached the rail-end so to speak.But, as the man was fond of saying in Gladiator, "Not yet. Not yet."

MNL

 

[eric]

Doug, this is important."An increase in inflammatory mediators alone is insufficient to explain the pathogenesis of IBS." http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/infl...rymediators.htm

 

[kamie]

Hey Mike, where are you when I need you?Kamie

 

[Automan]

Eric,I'm not quite sure I understand. So, are you saying.... Just what does that quote mean?

 

[eric]

Doug, that IBS is not completely generated from inflammation although it can act as a trigger, it also more importantly seems to be generated by a dysregulation of neurotransmitters between the communication the gut has back and forth with the brain which seems to also in part trigger the inflammation driven responces.

 

[Automan]

Eric,I thought inflamation almost alwasy ruled out IBS?

 

[Mike NoLomotil]

KAMIE:Sorry...I was at the doctor all afternoon and have some new issue sof may own unrelated to IBS to deal with.

You and Doug can read what I posted on Dougs other thread as it will express the same thing that should be explained here in this coversation. http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php...ic;f=1;t=029926 Since I go to great lengths not to post anything that is not pretty clearly fact, that which I may write on that other thread, whether someone accepts it or not because it does or does not fit any particular perosons' paradigms about so called IBS is not relevant to whether it remains fact.Indeed, Doug and Kamie, the statement posted above from the tutorial referenced, which states "An increase in inflammatory mediators alone is insufficient to explain thepathogenesis of IBS." is NOT a statement that ANYONE who has done their homework on IBS would disagree with. SO don't infer from it that anyone would disagree...even the most dogged investigator of immune aberration in IBS.The release of proinflammtory mediators by tissue and circulating immunocytes is a primary and significant Symptom Generating Mechanism in about 70% of people that get labelled with the IBS tag. It does not indeed explain the Pathogenesis, it is a CONSEQUENCE of the pathogenesis...and there are likely mulptiple causal bases for the dysfunctional and aberrant immunocyte reactions seen in both in vivo studies by Bengtsson et al, immunomodulating experiments by Stefanini over the years, clincal observation and therapeutics of Brostoff, and in vitro with the technology of the Mediator Release Test developed by Pasula.Rather, now knowing that this is where many of the SYMPTOMS come from directly, if you can PREVENT the release of mediators then you can reduce or even PREVENT the symptoms.This distinction seems awfully difficult to convey at times in spite of repeated efforts to ensure the distinction is clear. Especially to parties in the field who for years beat the drum loudly, and pontificated about, the non-existent role of proinflammtory mediators and immunocyte aberrations in IBS. Dogma dies a dogs death, even in medicine.But, as Groucho once said:"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch me a child of five."

This is a very important piece of information to the people who SUFFER the symptoms, the clinicians who care for them, and the insurance companies who have to keep shelling out for the never ending care of people whose symptoms will not resolve.The application of this knowledge clinically to the therapy of the affected patients results in much better therapeutic outcomes...which is the immeidate goal of any treatment program for such a condition, and need not be delayed in clinical implementation untile the causal basis of the abnormal immunocyte provocation by diet and "stress responses" is roted out.While the article tends to approach this from the viewpoint of the effects of stres upo the immune system htis is less than half of the equation. Others, taking the immuno-primary approach, have as much evidence so far to suggest that there are immuno-pathways heretofore unseen and unexplored that occur within the small bowel.The truth is probably a combination of the two.Gotta roll

MNL

 

[jamiethorntonlewis]

I like your post kamie and the ratings of pain

 

[kamie]

WOW Michael, That was quite a statement!I was talking about MY POST that I,me, myself and.....I.....Posted about my husbands pre-cancer condition.And so I wrote............"Hey Mike where are YOU when I need you" because it was a hard an frustrating day.And I thought heck, ol Mikee is doing a heck of a job researchin and researchin and researchin here for Doug and well,I guess I was just hopin that maybe, just maybe some one whose so good at RESEARCH just might.....oh well whatever. Hey but that's cool.you think what you want and I'll think what I want no matter how misguided and idiodic any one may decide that I am because it's all up to the colon anyway and we ALL know there's no real accounting for colons and their counterpartsOr we wouldn't still be moaning and groaning on the toilet.SPECULATION......the things discoveries are made of..........Glad to see you are keepin up on thingsand boy howdy, that was some good speech.So hey, not to worry.I've got it under control so I suppose I don't need no more of the "proinflammtory" whateversSorry to be a bother.LaterKamie

 

[kamie]

I like your post kamie and the ratings of pain__________________________________________________Thanks Jamie, it's nice to know someone likes the idiocy that fall out my mouth.what's that they say, laugh at yourself andlife's a comedy in the belly button?Or some such nonsense.ThanksKamie

 

[kamie]

Mike, here's what I posted w/ hope.________________________________Topic: Pre-Cancer Polyp Question kamie Senior Member Member # 14658 posted 10-08-2002 07:15 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi Everyone,We got the lab result on the Polyp that was removed during the Colonoscopy.It's pre-cancerous.So what to do from here ____________________________________________I won't bore you with the rest of the bloodydetails.Kamie

 

[Mike NoLomotil]

Hi Kamie....SIDEBAR: ____________________________________"I was talking about MY POST that I,me, myself and.....I.....Posted about my husbands pre-cancer condition.And so I wrote............" ____________________________________Oh yeah I wasn't posting anyting that had anything to do with you, only to warn against getting drawn into the tunnel of narrow-vision and to point out where that can occur among people of various "stations in life" who research write talk prosthelytize about IBS...(in fact I figured you would come back and tell me, clarify, what you needed as I was not sure) so I side-stepped that to stick to the topic of the diffeerence between pathogenisis of IBS and dysfunction in IBS as a consequence of the pathogenesis, as this is quite often confused, and confusing to, people who suffer IBS and are looking for SYMPTOM relief as distinct from seeking the pathology...which is much more elusive. its 2 diferent subjects and they are not mutually exclusive, so for the benefit of the other readers of data on the thread I just wanted to point that out.Now, where are we with your seeking of input....I am running like mad, sorry, as I have to hit the road again within 48 hours on short notice as I have to get some surgey of my own done and have to get some projects out of the box before I stop to have it. Ah, getting old sux.Oh, I see we need to clarify further sorry... _________________________________"...you think what you want and I'll think what I want no matter how misguided and idiodic any one may decide that I am because it's all up to the colon anyway and we ALL know there's no real accounting for colons and their counterparts.." __________________________________Not talking to you in my post, or anyone else specific for that matter unless the shoe fits, only addressing in general the tendency of investigators and their collaborators on both sides of the issue of the underlying disease(s) of IBS to use too much tunnel-vision, or to be so attached to their own paradigm that they are unable to step outside it and look at it form another perspective...and incorporate that perspective into interpreting their finidings...which are made in a vacuum relative to the findings of others. You are not among that population...so don't take any of that as addressed to you...I would be more direct if there ws something you said that I wanted to hash over with you...I don't see any such thing.

___________________________________"Sorry to be a bother. __________________________________no sick person trying to honestly learn with objectivity has ever been a bother to me. The things that bother me are the quid pro quos and dogma that exist within the healthcare realm. While after 30years I must surrender to the fact this is human nature, so anything populated by humans will be subject to these things, its one thing when it occurs in carpentry and wuite another when the outcomes of treating sick people are at stake. But, at least I have mellowed over the years as when I was young, I partnered (in the filed I worked within)ONLY with physicians and other therapists who were of like-mind. Sort of Attila and the Huns.

Indeed there were hospitals where people would see us coming down the halls or into the ICU and literally run for cover as the Huns were coming. Its hard to explain if you have not been in the environment from the caregiver side...and been able to do that in many types of positions over a long period of time...it is hard to convey the epxerience and perspective that color ones approach to things. Hmmm....oh well the verbiag is becoming turgid again...sorry.OK...aha there is the question I totally missed so you mistakenly thought Iw as tlaking to you in some mysteriously weird way....I can undrstand that for sure....lets see you said: ________________________________________"Hi Everyone,We got the lab result on the Polyp that was removed during the Colonoscopy.It's pre-cancerous.So what to do from here " ________________________________________What do you do?

Jump up and down and CHEER! (NOT him...keep his a-- DOWN!).That is great that they scoped him found the origin of the bleeding and got that sucker outta there. Precancerous should be taken in the same context as "pre emphysema" or "pre-preganant", in that it is NOT but the situation is that it could have LED TO the feared diagnosis.Now your GI doctor will recommoend what to watchj for and how often to be rechecked now that you found that hubby is a guy who might be prone to getting a polyp form time to time. Each guy has his own "monjtoring protovol". It's like scoping a guy with GERD and seeing some tissuie changes in the distal esophagus from chronic GERD...you just have to recheck from time to time to make sure that no tissue changes occur...like getting any checkup periodically.SO the doctor will give you his best advice based on what he/she saw nside and knows of your husbands history and whether there is any familial history which would be associated with this etc.What else shoudl you do?Well, to be blunt coming from the perspective of listening to immunologists and allergists who are food and chemicals-in-food conscious, try to makea lifetyle change wghich will minimize the epxosure of the GI tract and all its structures to potential carcinogens, and keep the detoxifying load placed on the GI tract and liver to a minimum.In simple terms this translates into laying off the big fat grilled steaks and roasts and burgers and dogs and all the processed foods and fast foods. Keep that to a minumum. You do not have to go nuts trying to be Ozzie and Harriet, but ry to pretend it is 1957 and eat a balcned whole foods diet modified to be light on the red meats and zero on the charcoaled stuff.You could also consult with a dietician who can give you supplement tips on antioxidants, for example, and how to incorporate those into the diet.BUT do not get tempted into the realm of anything which attenuates immunoresponse as this is the FLIPSIDE of what you want to do for hubby...you hae to think in terms of keeping the immune system fully, highly activeated and on guard s it has amaing abilities to isolate and destroy abnormal cells when they appear (and they do, this is normal). As we age, though, and the more we stress ourselves with toxins in the diet the more challening this becomes for the immune system and the more likely we are to develop malignancies and such.So thats all I can suggest and thaty is realy all you need to do to keep him around and doing well for a long long time...well, that, good genes, and careful driving! See you out on the road!

MNL

 

[Ekulrac]

It may be early days yet, but since I joined the group last Sunday and started taking Calcium Carbonate the cramps have gone, the D has gone and I haven't had one imodium.........give it a try.Buckinghamshire, U.K.ekulrac###tesco.net

 

[kamie]

Mike, WHATEVER............................you talk real good.As for knowing what to do? Thanks I've got that covered and handled.We already know that Mr. Kamies situation is not really IBS so I won't bother you any more.Oh on the food and diet thing....Actually we've got that down too.Mr. Kamies greatest sin is sneaking off to I-Hop and grabbing one of those famous breakfasts.Breakfast is his favorite meal of the day.As for Ozzie and Harriet.....Mike, WE ARE OZZIE AND HARRIET.We actually enjoy clean and wholesome.Heck if I weren't still ailing with those adhesions we'd be out doing trails w/ the horses and we'd be out diving on the weekends.So we simply don't have a cluttered ultra ridiculous diet of indulgence and morbid self gratification, save the sins of I-HOP.My husband does generally take good care of himself. He's 6'1" and doesn't go over 200 lbs.because it was bad for the horses back!!!!!!And yes, I am going to work with eliminating immune STIMULENTS from his life and work on working with immune SUPPORT because there's a big difference, and at least in this area of knowlege I DO know I'm right and I don't even care if anyone has a gazillion articles or research or whatever is meaningless to me at this point.Neither me nor Mr. Kamie will die if we never eat garlic, soy or enchinacea ever again.To me, it's not worth the risk of what I personally know to be true.So don't worry about educating me.I'm plenty fine in my own little delusionarycapsule.If you don't think my posts and outrageous ideas are valid..... you don't feel they are valid.Nuff said.But it does not invalidate me because as the sign on the wall says......IBS SELF HELP AND SUPPORT GROUP.....................I don't recall seeing that every one here has to become a medical student and I don't see anything here that says verify and sanctify before posting, and I don't see anything here that says personal opinion and personal experiences must be left at the door so as not to muddy the white carpet of clinical analysis.To me, self help implys self help.and so, If I am indulging in a little self help here by venting and pouring forth the sharing of my experience and personal life knowlege, then indeed that's what I will do.And by the way, when you write my name on a post and address me personally in all CAPS (or even standard lettering) then I will most definately assume that indeed you are refering to me in the space that follows.At least that's how it's done in the fantasy world I live in.From now on, in case you don't already know, when I write YOUR name, you will know I am talking about you and to you in specific and I wont be so socially rude as to include your name in a long post of academic tounge lashing if indeed the jab were not meant for you.Put someones name on something and what follows is your response to that person.It's the dynamics of letter writing. And I would imagine the same for BB internet writing.Call it what ever you will.AND YOU WILL.But at least we all know my perspective and that dear Michael is something that won't change.KamieP.S. I didn't just fall off the charcoaled grilledGMO infected truck yesterday. Or the day before.Before assuming that our diet consisted of sizzle and fry try asking about our real lifestyle.We may fart, but we don't drink beer and smoke either.don't assume ignorance just because you think I'm not well informed.What about genetics?You know, I sent you that private mail telling you about the whole genetic history in my husbands family.And you read that mail.Now don't tell me that with a mind likea steel trap that you definately have that you FORGOT that tiny little detail.So how about less focus on what bumpkins we are and a little more on the reality of genetics.Oh, I forgot....don't worry.....you don't need to focus anymore.Oh by the way in 1957 I was 2. My dad grilled everything. We had the worst most grilled high fat diet on the planet.I was started on beef jerkey as soon as I wouldn't choke on it.So it's no wonder I chose a Wholistic/Holistic life style as I grew up.My son grew up feeling deprived because I never had white bread in the house like at his friendshouse. And that's just the tip of the reality.

 

[Zouave]

Douglas and the gang,�All in our heads,� humm, I�m sure we have heard that more than once. For me it was �he�ll grow out of it.� The mind and the body aren�t separate issues. We are one organism, physical and spiritual. Saying something is in a persons head is pointless. Stress is a killer it can lead to heart attacks, cancer, and a host of other problems. Stress makes my stomach hurt. I internalize my feelings, my anger, my insecurities. I started IBSing when I was about 13. My family dynamic was a tough one. A family member was having serious emotional and drug problems. I was young and was scared, my stomach started to hurt as a way of coping. I could concentrate on that rather than on my emotional pain. But, does treating my gut medically help? Sure it does. Does seeing a shrink help too? Sure it does. I try to be balanced. That is what is missing from our world, balance. It�s hard with all the expectations, and gender rolls laid on us. We may never learn how to cope, how to say and do what we want to or need to. The bottom line is that our stomachs hurt and it effects our lives. It�s real and it hurts. All in our head, that implies that we should be able to shake it off and get back to our lives. That�s like telling a blind person to cut it out and read! It aint going to happen.

 

[eric]

This is a good and in depth on IBS and worth reading in depth.Irritable Bowel Syndrome: Taking Concepts Into Clinical Practice CMEChairperson: Michael D. Gershon, MD; Faculty: Kevin W. Olden, MD; Walter L. Peterson, MD; Nicholas J. Talley, MD, PhD; Gervais Tougas, MD, CM, FRCPC http://www.medscape.com/viewprogram/1985

 

[kamie]

Zouave posted:All in our head, that implies that we should be able to shake it off and get back to our lives. That�s like telling a blind person to cut it out and read! It aint going to happen. ____________________________________________I whole heartedly agree with that wonderfully put statement.I come from a family where there are Deaf People.People who are old enough to have been scarred by Polio.People who suffer w/ Alzheimers.but mostly, People who are People with all the assortment of challenges that a body can have.Telling people with the above problems that it's all in their heads would just seem cruel now days wouldn't it?but you know what?Those very people who are now embraced by thehumanitarian side of our society at one time DID suffer the masses of the medical people and the researchers and the know it alls telliing themvery rude and cruel things about the reality of their condition.I have an aunt who was sent to an assylum for being deaf.and not just one of those health recovery places they would call the assylum years ans aeons ago.The padded wall assylums.Yes.Things were not always so wonderfully evolved for The Handicapped.Do I have the latest news report on this?NOPE. Don't have nuthin'Except for relatives who are old enough to remember and tell the story.There's nothing worse than being told it's all in your head or you don't fit the criteria that we have decided upon when not even the doctors can agree on the reality of the truth.If I hear one more person try to convince me that ESTROGEN won't give me breast cancer when both my mother and her sister have already suffered with the disease....well who knows...but I am sure going to be anoyed. And you can bet I won't be taking that advise at any time in the near or distant future.The reality is this. If one has a physical challenge in life it is approprite to get on that persons side of perspective when attempting to address an issue with any kindness, because it is only until we can put our selves in the others shoes that we can even begin to help with finding the right answers for any one of the many totally individual beings on this crowded little planet.UNDERSTANDING FOLKS!!!!!!!!!That's what it's all about.Kamie