[jondoe]

Will antihistamines help with mucus at all? Is there anything that will?

 

[Mike NoLomotil]

Maybe you can be a little more detailed about what you mean, as there are a number of ways of interpreting what you mean by "mucous".They can, of course, if mucous production has been amplified by an immunologic reaction (inflammatory). Increased mucous production from the bowel has been linked to food and chemical sensivity an is a cardinal sign of activation of the "inflammatory response system" wherever in the body we may be talking about (lungs, upper respiratory, gut, etc) anywhere that mucosa exists.But it is also linked to mabny other things which can stimulate goblet cells to make more mucous, and what kind of mucous we make (more serous or more mucoid, color, etc)BUT the pattern, consistency and appearence of mucous and the presentation clinically can mean many different things and antihistamines may not only not necessarily be effective under certain conditions, but undesrieable to administer.if you can, give a little detail. I will check back tomorrow tos ee what this musous is about

MNL

 

[Mike NoLomotil]

Maybe you can be a little more detailed about what you mean, as there are a number of ways of interpreting what you mean by "mucous".They can, of course, if mucous production has been amplified by an immunologic reaction (inflammatory). Increased mucous production from the bowel has been linked to food and chemical sensivity an is a cardinal sign of activation of the "inflammatory response system" wherever in the body we may be talking about (lungs, upper respiratory, gut, etc) anywhere that mucosa exists.But it is also linked to mabny other things which can stimulate goblet cells to make more mucous, and what kind of mucous we make (more serous or more mucoid, color, etc)BUT the pattern, consistency and appearence of mucous and the presentation clinically can mean many different things and antihistamines may not only not necessarily be effective under certain conditions, but undesrieable to administer.if you can, give a little detail. I will check back tomorrow tos ee what this musous is about

MNL

 

[eric]

Jondoe, mucous in the stools?"Some patients see gobs of mucous in the stool and become concerned. Mucous is a normal secretion of the bowel, although most of the time it cannot be seen. IBS patients sometimes produce large amounts of mucous, but this is not a serious problem. " http://www.gicare.com/pated/ecdgs03.htm Mucous, in IBS can come from the intense contractions of the colon which is shedding cells.antihistamine may help in a round about way. I would personally try other ways first to slow the contractions of the gut.

 

[eric]

Jondoe, mucous in the stools?"Some patients see gobs of mucous in the stool and become concerned. Mucous is a normal secretion of the bowel, although most of the time it cannot be seen. IBS patients sometimes produce large amounts of mucous, but this is not a serious problem. " http://www.gicare.com/pated/ecdgs03.htm Mucous, in IBS can come from the intense contractions of the colon which is shedding cells.antihistamine may help in a round about way. I would personally try other ways first to slow the contractions of the gut.

 

[jondoe]

Yeh, Mucus in the stool, I think it's due to inflammation, possible colitis, anything that will relieve the inflammation or severe mucous production? I was just wondering if it's as simple as a regular anti-histamine, it clears out the nose and throut? Why not the gut? Any herbs that will reduce inflammation in the intestines, I think that is the root of the problem, I've tried to do it with a bland diet, rice, chicken, tuna, not much else, any suggestions? I'd eat nails if I thought it would help How do I control the gut reactions?

 

[jondoe]

Yeh, Mucus in the stool, I think it's due to inflammation, possible colitis, anything that will relieve the inflammation or severe mucous production? I was just wondering if it's as simple as a regular anti-histamine, it clears out the nose and throut? Why not the gut? Any herbs that will reduce inflammation in the intestines, I think that is the root of the problem, I've tried to do it with a bland diet, rice, chicken, tuna, not much else, any suggestions? I'd eat nails if I thought it would help How do I control the gut reactions?

 

[Mike NoLomotil]

JON:The question firt of mucous in stool is one of whether what you have is normal or abnormal in quantity and type.Also, even if it is excess, it does not automatically denote colitis, as it can be cause by anything which will stimulate the mucouse secreting cells to make more....there are even realtively benign chemicals in some foods which will do this.The mucous, unless it is comprised of a lot of signs of infection or is overly obtrusive (like in CF for example), is not in and of itself harmful to you. There are processes involved which could be though as you fear.before being concerned about this "symptom" it is best to discuss it with a GI doctor, who knows how to evaluate the sympotm (and any others) to determine how concerned you should be.Has a GI doc looked at you, talked to you about this and evaluated it yet? what did he say? Is this the only symptom?You say that you beleive it ios from (XYZ bad condition, but just remember, (and I am not saying this in an insulting way, but in

way, the doctor who treates himself has a fool for a patient. So if that is true how much truer for us when we do it?Let a GI doc check this out properly, please????Thanks!MNL

 

[Mike NoLomotil]

JON:The question firt of mucous in stool is one of whether what you have is normal or abnormal in quantity and type.Also, even if it is excess, it does not automatically denote colitis, as it can be cause by anything which will stimulate the mucouse secreting cells to make more....there are even realtively benign chemicals in some foods which will do this.The mucous, unless it is comprised of a lot of signs of infection or is overly obtrusive (like in CF for example), is not in and of itself harmful to you. There are processes involved which could be though as you fear.before being concerned about this "symptom" it is best to discuss it with a GI doctor, who knows how to evaluate the sympotm (and any others) to determine how concerned you should be.Has a GI doc looked at you, talked to you about this and evaluated it yet? what did he say? Is this the only symptom?You say that you beleive it ios from (XYZ bad condition, but just remember, (and I am not saying this in an insulting way, but in

way, the doctor who treates himself has a fool for a patient. So if that is true how much truer for us when we do it?Let a GI doc check this out properly, please????Thanks!MNL

 

[Mike NoLomotil]

Hi JonDoughBoy!

Top of the morning

If the physician is suspicious of Crohns, I would hold off on experimenting with any OTC immunomodulation or antiinflammatory agents. The mucous is a symptom of activation of the IRS (inflammtory response system) certainly, you have that right, but is a benign symptom so to speak.There are a number of proinflammatory mediators released in the small bowel in the IRS activation seen in IBS d's and cyclics, and the reaction pattern is distinct from that seen in Crohn's for example and basically has to be managed a bit differently.. People tend to to think of "inlfammation" as some fixed-form or single-pathway or single mechanism. On the contrary what combination of componenets of the IRS that may be active can vary widely.Usually it is better to allow the differential diagnosis to finish, using pharmacotherapy during that time to deal with serious symptoms like pain and diarrhea and bloating for example if one suffers those. There are way more mediators involved in the various IRS reaction possible than just histmamine.Depending upon which immunocytes are provoked and in what combination there are "in toto" perhaps 100 different specific proinflammatory mediators to consider. Mast cells alone will release (5) distinct classes of mediators which include 15-16 or so as I recall individual preformed or synhtesiazed mediators.The histamine released, like heparin, is classified as "toxic" mediator. It is directly toxic to any parasites (a primary function) and the collateral effects are to increase blood vessel permeability (to make it easier for intracascular immunocytes which "migrate" to sites of insult to get out to do so) and it causes smooth muscle contraction.The principal mast cell mediators which will alter mucous production are a type of lipid mediator called leukotrienes...in this case C4 and D4. These leukotrienes, "pound for poun"

are 100 times more powerful than histamine. In addition to altering vascular permeability and smooth muscle ativity like histamine, they stimulate mucous secretion.So you actually have to take anti-leukotriene agents or mast cell stabilizers (to prevent degranulation), not antihistamines to deal with increased mucous production. Or more simply isolate the things which are provoking the inmflammatory response and avoid them (in IBS...in IBD the mechanism is different, and can be aggrvated or amplified by exogenous factors, but the "autoimmune" IRS activation is primary).Now, once you trigger the IRS, even the more limited inflammatory response seen in the small bowel of IBS d-types ansd cyclics so far, you got other problems though because you alse dump PAF (platelet activating factor) which amplifes the effects of leukotrienes plus it activates or "recruits" other immunocyes to the site of insult (neutriphils, eosinophils, platelets). Also, you could have T-lymphocyte activation locally within the small bowel to deal with (biopsy has shown abnormal lymphocyte "accumulatiopn" along the pathwasy of the enteric nervous system as if the apteint is responding to an "infection"..activate the lymphocytes and another Pandoras box flies open). Again, this has been found on biopsy in IBD patients, and lymphocyte activators and mediators can be recovered from the small bowel washings (or biopsy) of IBS patients. Their appearence can be provoked with various dietary compnenets as a function of food sensitivity or intolerance, and the occasional comorbid alllergic reaction.Then the question becomes is there a cytotoxic reaction involved as well, and then you have to consider the mediators of the cytotoxic T-cells...complement activation ?...and on and on and on.This is sort of a very short illustrtaion of why its best to let doc finish ruling out the IBD possibility and if you are left with a symptom-based diagnosis of IBS, then there is a much clearer, and more narrowly focused, selection of treatment modalities to help isolate what is provoking the IRS activation seen in IBS patients, and then how to avoid it. Then the mucous of course along with any other sympotms will be reduced towards something more normal if you avoid that which provokes the release of mucosa-stimulating mediators.The antihistamines can perhaps help overall with reducing vascular peremability and slowing down the IRS repsonses and consequences (since the increased eprmeability to let cells OUT of the blood vessels also lets bigger than normal particles of food or toxic food additives IN to the bloodstream where cellular reactions are provoked and systemic symptoms of IRS activation experienced, and can help with other more obvious systemic activation of IRS (comorbid rhinitis, for example, if the person suffers it). There are other more benign options too once you know what you are dealing with in the first place.So I would just not suggest starting to pop antihistamines and endure the side effects of them, just to see if you could effect reduction in mucous....wrong drug anyway.Eat well. Think well. Be wellMNL

 

[Mike NoLomotil]

Hi JonDoughBoy!

Top of the morning

If the physician is suspicious of Crohns, I would hold off on experimenting with any OTC immunomodulation or antiinflammatory agents. The mucous is a symptom of activation of the IRS (inflammtory response system) certainly, you have that right, but is a benign symptom so to speak.There are a number of proinflammatory mediators released in the small bowel in the IRS activation seen in IBS d's and cyclics, and the reaction pattern is distinct from that seen in Crohn's for example and basically has to be managed a bit differently.. People tend to to think of "inlfammation" as some fixed-form or single-pathway or single mechanism. On the contrary what combination of componenets of the IRS that may be active can vary widely.Usually it is better to allow the differential diagnosis to finish, using pharmacotherapy during that time to deal with serious symptoms like pain and diarrhea and bloating for example if one suffers those. There are way more mediators involved in the various IRS reaction possible than just histmamine.Depending upon which immunocytes are provoked and in what combination there are "in toto" perhaps 100 different specific proinflammatory mediators to consider. Mast cells alone will release (5) distinct classes of mediators which include 15-16 or so as I recall individual preformed or synhtesiazed mediators.The histamine released, like heparin, is classified as "toxic" mediator. It is directly toxic to any parasites (a primary function) and the collateral effects are to increase blood vessel permeability (to make it easier for intracascular immunocytes which "migrate" to sites of insult to get out to do so) and it causes smooth muscle contraction.The principal mast cell mediators which will alter mucous production are a type of lipid mediator called leukotrienes...in this case C4 and D4. These leukotrienes, "pound for poun"

are 100 times more powerful than histamine. In addition to altering vascular permeability and smooth muscle ativity like histamine, they stimulate mucous secretion.So you actually have to take anti-leukotriene agents or mast cell stabilizers (to prevent degranulation), not antihistamines to deal with increased mucous production. Or more simply isolate the things which are provoking the inmflammatory response and avoid them (in IBS...in IBD the mechanism is different, and can be aggrvated or amplified by exogenous factors, but the "autoimmune" IRS activation is primary).Now, once you trigger the IRS, even the more limited inflammatory response seen in the small bowel of IBS d-types ansd cyclics so far, you got other problems though because you alse dump PAF (platelet activating factor) which amplifes the effects of leukotrienes plus it activates or "recruits" other immunocyes to the site of insult (neutriphils, eosinophils, platelets). Also, you could have T-lymphocyte activation locally within the small bowel to deal with (biopsy has shown abnormal lymphocyte "accumulatiopn" along the pathwasy of the enteric nervous system as if the apteint is responding to an "infection"..activate the lymphocytes and another Pandoras box flies open). Again, this has been found on biopsy in IBD patients, and lymphocyte activators and mediators can be recovered from the small bowel washings (or biopsy) of IBS patients. Their appearence can be provoked with various dietary compnenets as a function of food sensitivity or intolerance, and the occasional comorbid alllergic reaction.Then the question becomes is there a cytotoxic reaction involved as well, and then you have to consider the mediators of the cytotoxic T-cells...complement activation ?...and on and on and on.This is sort of a very short illustrtaion of why its best to let doc finish ruling out the IBD possibility and if you are left with a symptom-based diagnosis of IBS, then there is a much clearer, and more narrowly focused, selection of treatment modalities to help isolate what is provoking the IRS activation seen in IBS patients, and then how to avoid it. Then the mucous of course along with any other sympotms will be reduced towards something more normal if you avoid that which provokes the release of mucosa-stimulating mediators.The antihistamines can perhaps help overall with reducing vascular peremability and slowing down the IRS repsonses and consequences (since the increased eprmeability to let cells OUT of the blood vessels also lets bigger than normal particles of food or toxic food additives IN to the bloodstream where cellular reactions are provoked and systemic symptoms of IRS activation experienced, and can help with other more obvious systemic activation of IRS (comorbid rhinitis, for example, if the person suffers it). There are other more benign options too once you know what you are dealing with in the first place.So I would just not suggest starting to pop antihistamines and endure the side effects of them, just to see if you could effect reduction in mucous....wrong drug anyway.Eat well. Think well. Be wellMNL

 

[eric]

Jon, if you think you have inflammation and think IBD is your problem, you need to work with your doctor on this as its very important and IBD conditions can become worse and seriously become a health problem for you. It is also treated differently then IBS.

 

[eric]

Jon, if you think you have inflammation and think IBD is your problem, you need to work with your doctor on this as its very important and IBD conditions can become worse and seriously become a health problem for you. It is also treated differently then IBS.