[Pete]

Regarding this new bacteria study by Dr. P, as you know my main symptom is chronic burping and bloating. I decided to travel to UCLA and spoke with Dr. Chang and Dr Ippolitti. Every doc I had ever been to has said that the burping is due to airswallowing associated with GERD. When I went to UCLA(which is one of the best GI divisions in the US), these docs told me that the airswallowing theory was nonsense. They believe that the gas is caused by bacteria feeding on carbs and fiber in the small intestine. If I understood everything they said correctly, they believe that bacterial overgrowth is secondary to a motility problem. What this means is that I have some sort of motility problem which allows the bacteria to feast and grow in numbers. They told me that antibiotics would probably stop the gas but that as soon as I went off of them, it would come right back. They did not like this treatment because it basically meant antibiotics for life. They felt that my best bet for treatment is to wait for these new drugs like zelmac that affect motility. Once the motility problem is cured, then the bacterial balance should correct itself. Does this make any sense? I am also wondering if anyone has ever tried "natural antibiotics" like olive leaf extract. I have no idea if they actually kill bacteria but if they do, it could be worth experimenting with. Has anyone ever tried it. I am curious to read more about Dr. P's study. This is very interesting. Any comments?

 

[Blair]

One of My first symptoms of IBS was burping all the time, this was after an antibiotic treatment with Eurethomyicin ( sp ) which was nonsense as I posioned myself with an insecticide. I don't get the burping anymore like I used to.

 

[flux]

quote:They did not like this treatment because it basically meant antibiotics for life. They felt that my best be for treatment is to wait for these new drugs like zelmac that affect motility. Once the motility problem is cured, then the bacterial balance should correct itself. Does this make any sense

Actually, it's quite stupid. First, how do you know you have gas? Second, how do you know it's caused by bacteria? Third, how do you know you have a motility problem? Here they are trying to treat a straw man:

I'd reckon a better approach is to figure out what's what first.1) X-ray your intestine to see if really contains gas.2) Do a lactulose breath hydrogen study to determine if the gas is really from bacteria3) Do gastric/small bowel transit study, a electrogastrogpraphy and antroduodenal motilty study to determine what if any motility problem you have.4) Put all of the above together and then decide what to do.[This message has been edited by flux (edited 12-14-2000).]

 

[Pete]

flux,I should have mentioned that i did have a chest x-ray that showed abnormal amounts of gas. A gastric emptying study showed delayed emptying which confirms a motility problem. Finally I don't know if they said that I had a overgrowth of bacteria or whether the gas was simply caused by bacteria. I know you are knowledgable but we are dealing with possibly the best gastrenterologists in the US here. I think they may no more than you.Pete

 

[badfoot]

Hey PeteI met Chang at UCLA earlier this year. I've also had motility, lactose and you-name-it tested. From personal experience, the motility-as-causative theory seems correct. At least with the info we have (and UCLA has) up to this point. I have extreme IBS c/d to the point where I have to fight to keep on weight. I've noticed that echinacea, an herbal antibiotic, sometimes helps move things along. Someone else on the board had the same experience. I've had a truckload of various antibiotics since this problem started (1988) and while they sometimes offer temporary relief they are also very tough on my gut. Waiting for Zelmac. Relaxation tapes offer some help. best of luck.

 

[flux]

quote:I should have mentioned that i did have a chest x-ray that showed abnormal amounts of gas.

Where was the gas located? In your stomach?

quote: A gastric emptying study showed delayed emptying which confirms a motility problem.

This could mean that air is accumulating in your stomach. (You don't even have to pathological aerophagia for that; it could just accumulate from natural aerophagia).

quote:Finally I don't know if they said that I had a overgrowth of bacteria or whether the gas was simply caused by bacteria.

It would be hard to conlcude you had an overgrowth of bacteria without at least doing a lactulose test or better yet, a culture. But if the gas is in the stomach, odds are it's from the atmosphere since gas from bacteria overgrowth would be coming from the duodenum/jejunum and that gas should move away from the stomach.

 

[babydoc_au]

Thanks Pete for sharing this. I also suffer bloating and burping with c, and the bloating is decreased by cutting out carbohydrates. Flux -are you a Gastroenterologist? If not, maybe you shouldn't describe Pete's post as "stupid". It's really not very helpful. You keep telling us that bloating is from swallowed air, but fail to explain why or how we could be swallowing so much air. As there are currently no good explanations for bloating I think we need to keep an open mind.

 

[flux]

quote:You keep telling us that bloating is from swallowed air

Bloating is usually not from gas. See http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/015145.html for more details.

 

[Guest]

Hello! I suffer from bacterial overgrowth, as diagnosed by a doctor connected with Cedars-Sinai. He has had me taking Culturelle for a while now and his tests have proved the bacteria has been reduced. We've tried a round of antibiotics, but it didn't affect anything. Sometimes you have to try different antibiotics, but this doctor preferred to try the Culturelle before trying anymore antibiotics. I have had terrible D off and on for 6 years. I was kind of in a remission period when I started the Culturelle, but I've definitely noticed a difference. My stools are firmer (due to less bacteria), and I don't have a constant stomach ache anymore. I had a colonoscopy done last summer that ruled out any structural abnormalities. It's possible that I do have a motility problem at times. When I was a child I had a terrible time trying to go; sometimes it would be 2 weeks before I could go. In the last few years, it's like I was in Hyperactive mode. I'm looking forward to working further with this doctor, who has had some IBS troubles himself. He's pretty understanding.

 

[trbell]

rather than arguing ultimate causation i'd like to hear more about solutions like olive leaf extract and enchineatom

 

[HipJan]

Hi, paloma. Just curious....how did your doc diagnose you with the bacterial overgrowth? I have felt, for some time, that I too have had that. In fact, my nutritionist has been treating me for that, among other things, though it's really been slow going. (I've taken probiotics for ages and am currently doubling my intake since I've had to take a lot of Zantac lately for my acidity problem.) It's tough getting the average medical doc to get too excited about a bacterial overgrowth problem, I've found, possibly because they don't know how to treat it. Good luck with yours!trbell, I don't know anything about olive leaf extract (though I know that olive oil may help some people). I know that echinacea is supposed to help one's immune system (e.g., for colds); however, you are not supposed to take it for more than 6 weeks, I believe, at a time.

 

[Guest]

HipJan,I was diagnosed a few years ago with the hydrogen breath test. My doctor told me from the start that many GIs in the mainstream don't take this too seriously because it's not life threatening and they just don't know a lot about it. I take a higher than usual dose of the probiotic Culturelle.(I believe 40 billion units???) Good luck, HipJan. You might try another GI who'll give you a hydrogen breath test because they can gauge your progress after trying pro or antibiotics.

 

[Oksana]

Hey PETE! It sounds like you live in LA... go to CAPITOL DRUGS there's one in West Hlywd. & one in Sherman Oaks... They sell refrigerated lactobaccillicus cultures... only the kind kept in a fridge in a brown glass container has active/LIVE cultures. This is wonderful for killing BAD/unwanted bacteria and also really reduces gas, bloating, etc. Put a 1/4 teaspoon of it in yoghurt every morning. If you hate yoghurt then put it in ROOM temperature bottled water and DRINK it. 1-3 times per day. It's sweet tasting, not bad.You must keep it in a fridge. The pills do not work as the culture is DEAD from the heat.This helped me a lot. I have IBS w/ D. I did it after taking antibiotics for H. Pylori as antibiotics kill ALL the bacteria and you want the good kind in your GI because it helps kill the bad kind. They have a few kinds, buy the one with multiple strains. Tell them if you're lactose intolerant or not... as there is one kind that's not good for lactose intol. types like me. Please let me know how much better you feel. You can take this permanently but should take it for at least a month. A 4 oz. jar is about $30 and will last a very long time. Be sure to keep it in fridge. cheers!

 

[stinky too]

Pete, I never had burping and bloating mine was constant BO gas, which nothing seemed to take away. A Doctor told me I had Candida yeast, I found the Cadida Welness center on Internet. I ordered their solution which included taking olive leaf extract, probotics, etc. I ended up spending over 3 thousand on these "natural antibiotics" and it didn't make a difference. I also tried other things like grapefruit seed extract, drinking 3% H2O2 and I forget what else, all over a period of 3 years. Nothing really made an improvement. The one thing that did help was change of diet, especially cutting out carbs. It helped get rid of large volums of gas, but did not take the bad smell part away.

Paloma, I sent for the Culturille and started taking it, don't see a difference yet. Wondering how much and when you take yours. Also do you cut back on high carb. foods??------------------Prayer doesn't change God , it changes the one who prays..C type, with G

 

[Guest]

JoyceinOH, No, I haven't cut out carbs, but I do avoid dairy and the usual things, like broccoli and beans. A word of warning: not all Culturelle is the same. I first ordered Culturelle off the internet and had no change in my symptoms. My doctor looked over my box off Culturelle and discovered that it was about 1/4 the dosage of the Culturelle he orders from the company. So, he ordered directly from the company (on the phone) and got me the same amount of pills for about the same price, but with much more potency! He was very upset that Culturelle allowed other companies to sell their product like that.The Culturelle that I now use has 40 mg of Lactobacillus GG per capsule. So, read the box and make sure yours matches 40 mg, or you're getting ripped off like I was. The phone number on the box is 1-888-828-4242. I think this is where my doctor called to order them.Also, he had me take two of these capsules a day, instead of one.

 

[eric]

This is from Whats new in IBS from the IFFGD."Food and IBS Many people with IBS notice an association between eating and their symptoms. This could be due to abnormal digestion caused by a dietary intolerance (e.g., lactose intolerance, sorbitol malabsorption, inability to digest fructose or bean sugars). In these instances, the undigested food causes looser stools and provides a source of food to bacteria, which then produce more gas. Much is already known about this link between food and IBS symptoms, but investigators are exploring whether the act of eating may also trigger abnormal gastrointestinal movement or enhance bowel sensation in the absence of food intolerance. One group of investigators from Spain studied healthy volunteers to see if food consumption affects the way intestinal gas is processed. When gas alone was infused into the small intestine, the volunteers reported no discomfort, and the investigators did not detect any increase in anal gas retention or increase in girth (measurement around the waist). However, if they distended the stomach and then infused the gas into the small intestine, the subjects reported discomfort and significant nausea. Furthermore, when the investigators infused food into the small intestine with the gas, increases in gas retention and girth were seen. This study suggested the act of eating may cause changes in intestinal motor activity, which could be a mechanism for the bloating and gas symptoms experienced by individuals with IBS. A separate study performed in Sweden also looked at whether or not food intake affects colonic sensation. A pressure-gauge balloon was inserted into the colon, and then a fat solution was infused into the small intestine to simulate food. The researchers recorded pressure readings before and after the fat solution was infused. They discovered that when food intake was simulated, individuals with IBS had lower colonic pain thresholds than individuals without IBS. The investigators hypothesized that this alteration in colon sensation may explain why IBS sufferers experience more symptoms after they eat. However, another group of investigators in the U.S. performed a similar experiment and found no change in rectal sensation with consumption of real food. They did find that subjects with constipation-predominant IBS have a lower colonic discomfort threshold in general, compared with subjects with diarrhea-predominant IBS or those without IBS. Thus, the interaction of food and colonic sensation is still unclear."Here is the link http://www.aboutibs.org/article%20locke.html ------------------ http://www.ibshealth.com/ www.ibsaudioprogram.com

 

[stinky too]

paloma,I check my Cultrelle box, and the literature that came with it and no where did it mention how many mgs. it does say 10 billion cells tho.I had sent for 3 boxes which I got and about a week later I got 3 more which I hadn't ordered. So maybe you Doctor getting on them did some good. I assume I got the 1/4

dousage and then they sent me a second order free.

I intend to call that 888 number THANKSIf these are 1/4 and I have to double the amount I will be taking 8 of these a day. PS I see that phone number on the box itself.------------------Prayer doesn't change God , it changes the one who prays..C type, with G

 

[Guest]

Well, the bacteria report brought me back to this board to see what people think of it. Hi hipjan. I of course am a candida advocate, as treatment for it has pretty much eliminated IBS as a problem for me. Its good to see flux is still flux.(the flux-ebo effect still applies whenever anyone challenges the status quo). Sounds like those guys at cedars-sinai and UCLA are a real bunch of bozos. I want to suggest that if this bacterial theory is true an herbal product called grapefruit seed extract (GSE) might be worth a trial for some. It seems to have some good documented antibacterial (and antifungal) properties. Its pretty caustic, so you should start with only a drop or two in a glass of water and work up from there. Its available in a lot of health food stores. When I have some problems I mix it with a fiber supplement and it seems to help a lot.

 

[Guest]

Pete, this theory doesn't at all sound stupid. It sounds quite logical I think. However, I would agree with Flux. It would be a good idea to check out each of Flux's suggestions. Test each component first. But I like this motility theory. Brian

 

[mkoonie]

Hey Flux,Do you realize you come off as being mean?