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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Flux,You know I have a great deal of respect for you, but I have a question.Why are you so convinced that bacterial overgrowth or fungus is not misdiagnosed as ibs. I mean I know that if I take antibiotics and probiotics, my fart count goes from 100 per day to 10 per day. To me this is proof of some weird dysbiosis/overgrowth going on. When my symptoms are the worst, I have jock itch? Could yeast be a factor. I do have inflamation at terminal ileum but the doc at Cedar Sinai thinks it is due to bacterial overgrowth. Says he could never prove it, but maybe he is right? I just know personally my symptoms are less if I fight bacteria and stay away from sugar(which I think the reason for this is that the bugs feed on it)?I think my symptoms are due to bacteria and not to the serotonin/ brain/gut theories. I do value your opinion even though I don't always agree with it. I've also noticed that mosapride has reduced my burping but my lower gas has increased a little. Wouldn't this mean that it is all the same gas/ upper and lower?Thanks
 

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quote: I think my symptoms are due to bacteria and not to the serotonin/ brain/gut theories.
pete, i agree with you. I also suspect that maybe there is some type of problem with our immune system and this is why we have trouble controlling microrganisms. I think that the pancreas could also be involved. the pancreas plays a role in keeping organisms out of the upper/mid small intestines. when i eat certain foods (especially grain) I get bad low blood sugar attacks.I also wonder how effective the antibiotic therapy really is. If the bacteria just come back after a few months then something else needs to be addressed.maybe a high quality digestive enzyme like Wobenzyme would be a valuable assist. The same with using herbal antibiotics on a daily basis after the antibiotic therapy is finished.Maybe some people are dealing with food intolerances that are "tying" up the immune system. If the immune system gets tied up with food proteins then that would give bacteria/yeast a chance to start multiplying.eric has posted something on this (i guess even he is finally getting on board). his post -- from a highly respected immunologist-- suggests that our immune system can undergo a dramatic shift and this can allow bacteria/yeast to grow unchecked -- esther sternberg. She thinks that viruses, toxins, even bad bacteria can set the stage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Kel,Everything you say makes sense to me. I read all of your posts and please don't take this the wrong way, but it is hard to respect what you say when you are trying 30 different things at once. You are all over the map so how could you possibly know what is and what is not helping. I am glad something you are taking is making you feel better. I think that ibs/gerd is caused mostly by some motility problem in our digestive tract. I don't think anyone knows what causes the motility problem but this allows bacteria and yeast to overgrow. I think by controlling the bacterial/yeast populations, we control our symptoms but are never cured because the underlying motility problem exists. My bet is that most motility problems are due to nerve damage caused my a virus or pathogen.
 

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No offense taken.You are correct. I am doing some things and I have no idea if they are helping. An example would be the Coenz Q10 (the doctor wants me to take this). The doctor also has me taking Quercetin to help prevent the mast cells from releasing their chemicals (I take it but I don’t know how much it is helping). The fish oil helps but I don’t know how much. Also, the enzymes – I have no idea if they help. –and then the homeopathy has created a HUGE variable (as of right now –it has only worked on a couple of the brain issues and the “toxic/sick” feeling that I had for several years)I know for a fact that Ibsacol has had a profound impact on me. I also know for certainty that the herbal antibacterial/fungal teas have helped immensely. I also know that an oligoantigenic diet has been critically important. --and removal of sugar is extremely important.All I can say is that after 19 years of suffering every single day I finally decided that I had had enough. –and now I have literally wiped out some of my biggest problems (gas, cramps, bloat, pain, odor). Several other symptoms have been reduced substantially like fatigue, brain fog, sinus inflammation, asthma, very cold limbs….Therefore, I feel very successful but also very frustrated because I don’t know what has caused all of this to happen (but I have a general idea).What can I say?????? At least I am getting results. The homeopathy is the treatment that causes the most skepticism and probably has most people thinking that I am a whack job, but I will investigate every lead and do whatever it takes to get healthy.Eventually as the months go on and on I am able to gauge what treatments are effective and what treatments are not worth the effort. ( an example would be the Ibsacol – I was taking it and it worked very nice but I totally failed to connect it to my remission. It took a couple of months of suffering before I tried it again and I went into remission again –large stool formation but with poor peristalsis)Since I am a severe case (IBS) with multiple other syndromes it is going to take a lot of treatments to address all of my problems.
 

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quote: My bet is that most motility problems are due to nerve damage caused by a virus or pathogen.
Viruses are a very intriguing possibility. "Pathogen" - I have wondered about this. Some bacteria form spores and antibiotics can not kill the spore. That could be why people who get treated by Pimental and by cedar-sinai NY continue to have relapses/trouble??????? I think that the problem with some of these doctors is that they are trained to take a VERY narrow approach to everything. By taking a narrow approach they are going to miss many things. - especially since we are all different. I think that by taking a very broad "whole-body" approach is the way to get the best results. Unfortunately this is extremely costly because the insurance companies are not going to pay for things like fish oil and coenzyme Q10, Ibsacol, herbs, quercetin, enzymes….All I can say is that at times I am baffled beyond belief, but I never quit looking for the answers.
 

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Pete, read all the articles in the IBS resource in Medscape and it will all become clearer.www.medscape.comYour specific case could be different.IBS and upper gi symptoms can and do overlap.It can be possible to have sibo and IBS and gerd.Depending on who is doing the diagnoses, SIBO could be misdiagnosed as IBS, but using the right criteria the odds of an organic disease are less then 1 or 2 percent for a misdiagnoses.They mimick the symptoms of IBS, but not toally the global cluster in IBS symptoms.BACTERIAL OVERGROWTH IN IBS http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/bact...rowthandibs.htm Also for some perhaps there are flora issues and fermentation issues created by the brain gut axis dysregulation. So the underlying disorder cause other issues.
 

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quote:Why are you so convinced that bacterial overgrowth or fungus is not misdiagnosed as ibs. I mean I know that if I take antibiotics and probiotics, my fart count goes from 100 per day to 10 per day. To me this is proof of some weird dysbiosis/overgrowth going on.
In your case, I agree you have something unusual, call it dysbiosis if you want, going on. I don't think it is an overgrowth of bacteria, but your bacteria of their activity changed somehow. (I'm not entirely sure, however, that your entire problem could be explained by just that, but that might have another problem coexisting.)However, this and IBS are two different things. The symptoms clearly are very different. IBSers have normal gas volumes for example. And as you stated, the underlying pathophysiologies are very different. I also don't see how anything related to serotonin could cause abnormal gas volumes.So it's possible for someone to get something wierd, but most people who have been diagnosed with IBS don't have anything weird going on.
 

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quote:What do you think is the best way to treat what ever happened to my flora?
What happened to the VSL#3?
 

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vsl#3it's bull****.i think so because i tried it and i stop it right away.i was worst with that.flux ,i have found your real identity your an UNMASKED GASTRO M.D..If your not,your talk like one;ex.more pain with injected air in ibs sufferers colon than average people.wow! what a discovery!
 

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Um...before you go off on flux (oops too late)Pete for awhile WAS taking VSL#3 and from what I remember had at least some luck with it.I think Pete is the first one I ever heard talk about it on the board, and many of the people here tried it because it was helping him (or at least making the time between antibiotic treatments a fair amount longer).Is it not working for you anymore, Pete?K.PS found it in the archives...so I am NOT just crazy...well I may be crazy...but I did remember Pete and VSL#3 were doing good together at one time see from 2001 archives http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/u...c;f=44;t=003965
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I still take vsl#3 but it is not 100% relief for the gas. It used to be much more effective. I lost power in my house for about 2 days this summer in the blackout. I had about a 6 month supply of the stuff. I can't help but think many of the cultures died. I am going to throw the rest away and order a new batch so I'll know for sure. What I don't understand is why I must take this forever. Shouldn't they colonize and reproduce in my gut and sustain their population?
 

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Different species and strains will have different abilities to get a permanent foot hold in the gut. A lot depends on what you got in there, and what other bacteria you are exposed to daily.The colon recolonizes pretty quickly after antibiotics so the environment has bacteria around that will colonize you if the opportunity is available.How much open space you have for the VSL bacteria and how well those particular bacteria can colonize your internal ecology, is gonna vary from person to person, and even from time to time (does the diet you eat tend to make the VSL or the non-VSL bacteria happier, etc.)I know with Probiotica after several months I didn't have to take it every day. But I find that I still need to take it (or Jarro probiotics which i got recently as Probiotica got sold to someone else and the price went up alot) at first about once a week or so, and then later every month or so. Basically when the fart frequency goes up, I have to take it for a few days as the gassy bacteria are obviously still in my environment and over time the re-colonize me.So depending on what is going on with you they will be more, or less likely to be able to colonize you effectively and for how long. If the other bacteria around you are better at getting a foothole it could take sometime, or never be permanent.It might be worth doing an osmotic laxative prep (like for a colonoscopy) before starting on the new batch to try to open up some ecological space for the fresh VSL so it could take better.K.
 

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I take the VSL#3 every day since early June based on your original post. I spend more money on this stuff than anything else. I don't think it is implanting.Maybe that M.D. (dr shaw -- former Center for Disease Control medical doctor) is correct about our intestines becoming conditioned to the flora at infancy and maybe this is why we tend to hang on to our gut flora for life.He thinks that some of us might actually mount a response to friendly bacteria --- wouldn't that be nice!!!This is just one more reason why i suspect that women who live in underdeveloped countries that eat the indigenous diet and breastfeed their babies are living according to natural law. It is when man thinks he can do it better -- baby formula, fast food -- that we get into trouble.Now I may be permanantly screwed because of this. --- and i was on a lot of antibiotics as a baby due to my immune system being assaulted from cow protein. well, pete, you are going to love this one. someone read my long ibsacol post and thinks they know what might have happened to my immune system. they sent me almost $100 worth of a product that functions as an immune system builder. a lot of HIV/aids patients take it. i am trying it because i have no choice but to chase down every lead imaginable. if it works, then i will save a fortune by being able to discontinue the VSL#3.whatever it takes!
 

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Pete..I looked up the VSL#3 site and assuming the research they report is accurate the bacteria are not expected to make a permanent foothold in the colon
quote: 10.How long does VSL#3� take to work?In general, initial results can be expected within one week of treatment while the maximal effects can be expected within two to three weeks from the start of the first treatment. A study conducted with VSL#3� confirms that maximum bacterial colonization of the gut (which corresponds to treatment effectiveness) occurs 20 days after the start of the treatment with VSL#3�. This high level of colonization remains stable throughout treatment. After the treatment is interrupted, the "good" bacteria are lost in approximately 2-3 weeks.
So the strains picked do not seem to be that good at getting a permanent toehold in the gut.I do not know how this compares to other strains.K.
 

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quote: I looked up the VSL#3 site and assuming the research they report is accurate the bacteria are not expected to make a permanent foothold in the colon
Oh Great!!i guess i am going to either switch to kyodophilus or add the kyodophilus to the vsl3.the kyodophilus uses human strains from the gut of some japanese researcher back in the '60's (the original samples have been preserved). i hope he wasn't to close to hiroshima at any time in his life.
 

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As far as I know they have found no bacteria which colonize permanently. In anycase kel there migght not be much point in switching probiotics if VSL#3 is helping because VSL3 might be right for your individual flora while another probiotic with different bacteria might not.
 

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well, i think i want some of this japanese guy's bacteria in me. either that or i may give culturelle a try. i hear that that one colonizes the gut. however, according to my CDSA i have plenty of acidophilus but no bifidus.bifidus is something that we are supposed to have. Babies are rapidly colonized with bifidus if they are breastfed
quote: The succession of bacterial populations in the large bowel of seven breast-fed and seven formula-fed infants was examined during the first year of life. The composition of the intestinal microflora varied according to the infant's diet. During the first week of life breast-fed and formula-fed infants were colonised by enterobacteria and enterococci followed by bifidobacteria, Bacteroides spp., clostridia and anaerobic streptococci. From week 4 until solid foods were given, breast-fed babies had a simple flora consisting of bifidobacteria and relatively few enterobacteria and enterococci. Formula-fed babies during the corresponding period were more often colonised by other anaerobes in addition to bifidobacteria and had higher counts of facultatively anaerobic bacteria. The introduction of solid food to the breast-fed infants caused a major disturbance in the microbial ecology of the large bowel as counts of enterobacteria and enterococci rose sharply and colonisation by Bacteroides spp., clostridia and anaerobic streptococci occurred. This was not observed when formula-fed infants began to take solids; instead, counts of facultative anaerobes remained high while colonisation by anaerobes other than bifidobacteria continued. At 12 months, the anaerobic bacterial populations of the large bowel of breast-fed and formula-fed infants were beginning to resemble those of adults in number and composition and there was a corresponding decrease in the number of facultative anaerobes. These changes are discussed in relation to changes in susceptibility to gastro-intestinal infection.
the work of dr shaw has me wondering if my body is hostile to bifido bacteria because i was never breastfed. therefore, my body does not like it as much as some other less friendly strains.
quote: Pete, read all the articles ...www.medscape.comYour specific case could be different
i don't think pete is such an anomaly considering some of the temporary results that dr pimental has achieved. I certainly fit the description as do a number of people here.i think the better question is --"why do these microorganisms continue to return to the scene of the crime".something is going on. i have my suspicions.*************************************************by the way eric -- Dr sternberg thinks that the brain is being attacked by any number of things before it finally starts sending out bad instructions. she mentions toxins as one source of dyregulators of the brain.could it be that some people have several things going on that makes it difficult to control not only the microbes but also the metabolism of the dozens and dozens of endo, exo, and mycotoxins that are being produced??? could food intolerances and immune dysfunction and a general poor liver performance (lacking a few key detoxification enzymes) all contribute to what might be happening???yes i think it sounds very reasonable.could some of these toxins be the source of some of our mental suffering such as anxiety, depression, panic, schizophrenia, bipolar, autism, seizures? i believe that these toxins can cause this. i just got finished reading about how a certain bacteria creates "false neurotransmitters" -- the liver is supposed to break these down but what if the liver is sleeping on the job or overburdened with cleaning up the cream of tartaric acid (yeah, i like fish sticks with tarter sauce).i shall find out more about these "false neurotransmitters".
 

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ahhh. found something. let the attack begin.************************************************i find this to be very interesting. not only does it talk about altered sleep patterns, and altered mental functioning (brain fog???) but also it almost eerily describes fibromyalgia. i would not be surprised if intestinal and colonic bowel toxins ARE disturbing neurotransmitters such as serotonin (wait -- i know, i know --- "...they are studying these things and we know so much ...... blah blah...")do i think that people are suffering from hepatic encephalopathy? no, not necessarily, but who is to say that some of us might not have a small case of it. I mean -- in people who really do have it -- do they just wake up one morning and bingo ---they have it (and the day before there was no trace of it)???? no that is ridiculous. in real life, a lot of these are happening but to various degrees.I say --- if you have the symptoms of small intestinal overgrowth then you should do whatever it takes to get in under control --- natural treatments would be preferrable.
quote: http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/2001/02_01/assi.htm The main objective of therapy is to decrease intestinally derived toxins produced by excessive bacterial activity and increased formation of ammonia. Hepatic encephalopathy is characterized by neuropsychiatric manifestations ranging from a slightly altered mental status to coma, and neuromuscular symptoms may be present. This complication of chronic or acute liver disease is a result of the failure of the liver to detoxify toxins originating in the intestine. Many of the early neuropsychiatric symptoms of hepatic encephalopathy (eg, altered sleep patterns) have been attributed to modification of the monoamine neurotransmitter serotonin. Serotonin is derived from the amino acid tryptophan
 

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Kel-You had mentioned Kyodolphilus in one of your posts. David Webster who has a Book on Colon Health, ..on restoring beneficial bacteria in your colon..He suggests that this is the ONLY Probiotic to use..The formula contains only three strains..acidolphilus/bifido/longum. He advises opening 30-40 capsules mixing with 8oz of warm water and implanting via an enema. Once this is accomplished he states..There is NO need to ever take another Probiotic again..unless you've been on Anti-biotics for any extended period. This might be the only way to re-establish a large population of Bifido in your colon! Going the oral route..its a long trip down to the colon..you have to wonder what % actually survive the TRIP!
 
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