[22663]

Hi everyone. I sent this email below to a person on the internet that I found who is very knowledgeable when it comes to bacteria. Basically what I am trying to understand is, if you took a antibiotic that did nothing for you, could it potentially make the bacterial you are trying to eradicate resistant to other antibiotics that use a different "Mechanism of action" as described on: http://euclid.dne.wvfibernet.net/~jvg/Bio2...al_Therapy.html Any feedback is greatly appreciated by the knowledgeable people on this board.

Message sent:Hi Trudy, While doing some research on the antibiotic Rifampicin, I stumbled across your response to a question: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00021.htm Basically without making this message to long I will try to summarize as much as possible. I have been sick for over a year & 6 Months. I got sick after a very bad attack of food poisoning/stomach bug that caused severe diarrhea for 1 week. However, after symptons reduced they didn't go away. They linger to this day. A quick rundown of them are the following: - Constant extreme fatigue- alternating Constipation/diarrhea- Stomach bloating- Flatulence After seeing many doctors & trying to get to the bottom of what is wrong I have eliminated the following as being possibilities by undergoing some relatively expensive tests: - celiac disease- Any "known" pathogenic bacteria- crohns disease & ulcerative colitis- many others Sorry for having to explain this but I feel that it is significant to the question I am getting to that hopefully you can help with. After being on a course of Metronidazole it didn't do anything in relation to symptons. My regular doctor presumed that it wasn't any sort of pathogenic bacteria that is the cause, rather, just symptons of IBS that can occur after a bad stomach upset. At that stage I temporariy accepted it, hoping that it would go away itself. Until I went to the dentist & was given Neomycin in the gum as part of the first stage treatment of a root canal. Approximately 2 hours later after receiving Neomycin ALL my symptons alleviated dramatically. I think I swallowed a fair amount of the Neomycin liquid during the consultation. Unfortunately my symptons soon came back within a couple of days. On the 2nd consultation I received another squirt of liquid to the gum of Neomycin. The exact same thing happened only this time the symptons came back much sooner. I guess after explaining all this, the question I am trying to get to is, what are other antibiotics that are meant for oral consumpton that act in the same way in killing bacteria somewhat like Neomycin? . I have seen a specialist in Sydney ( I live in Melbourne, Australia) & he has given me a course of rifampicin to take. He believes it could work & he also wants me to undergoe his HPI therapy: http://www.probiotictherapy.com.au According to what I have read (http://euclid.dne.wvfibernet.net/~jvg/Bio2...al_Therapy.html ) I don't believe that Rifampicin acts in anyway similar to Neomycin in killing bacteria. Are you able to make any suggestions here? Sorry once again for the long email, but the mere fact that I am onto a signifcant possibility of being better again makes me very excited & somewhat scared at the same time. I guess I am scared of taking antibiotics that do nothing that can form bacterial resistance with another antibiotic which may have been able to help me if I had of taken it first. If that makes sense. Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Thankyou very Much in advance. Brad

 

[Kathleen M.]

Yes, taking antibiotics that do nothing (because for instance you have a virus not a bacteria, like when you have a cold) can contribute to the problem of antibiotic resistance.ALL the bacteria in your body (or in the case of the gut-only antibiotics every bacteria in your colon) are exposed to the antibiotic. If they are a type that is killed by the antibiotic some portion of the population may survive by becoming resistant. No antibiotic kills a specific pathogenic bacteria only. They effect any bacteria that has the part that the antibiotic messes up. Some antibiotics kill a wider range of bacteria than others. Antibiotics kill indiscriminately. They don't keep the bacteria you want to keep (so the problem of woman getting vaginal yeast infections after antibiotics, you killed the good guys with the bad and something else grew that is normally kept under control with a healthy population of the right bacteria). They kill of anyone that has the parts the antibiotic effects.The problem is you can make some of your normal, non-pathogenic, are supposed to be in there bacteria resistant. It isn't a problem that they survive the antibiotics directly. The problem is bacteria share DNA. So the normal, friendly, bacteria that you don't care if they are resistant may at some point run across some bacteria you want to kill off and it gives the resistance genes to it, and now it survives when they give you antibiotics.Now I don't know how clinically significant the ones used for SIBO are. That is how likely they are to be used for deadly bacterial infections. There are a few antibiotics they really don't use for anything other than people with a deadly infection to try to keep wide-spread resistance out of the population. If you want to try antibiotics for IBS I stongly encourage people to get tested for SIBO first. From what I understand from talking to some doctors that test for SIBO, a fair number of people have all the symptoms of SIBO, test normal. You want a before test so you can be tested afterward. To see if you actually got rid of the bugs as some people might need to try a couple of different antiobiotics to find the one that actually kills of the bacteria you got, and if the antibiotic didn't work and you don't test you don't know if it is because you didn't have SIBO or you didn't find the right antibiotic or what happened. (now not all people have access to testing, but I think more IBSer need to press for testing not just getting antibiotics randomly).Usually they don't cause cross resistance. Different antibiotics effect different parts of the bacteria. So if you get resistance to one that disrupts for instance the ability of the bacteria to make a cell wall, that bacteria will still be killed by an antibiotic that disrupts it's ability to make protiens. The resistance developed is specific to the antibiotic that you take. They don't become resistant to all antibiotics, they make a change that allows them to survive the specific attack, not all attacks of any kind.K.

 

[22663]

Hi Kathleen,Thankyou very much for your detailed reply. It was quite informative & very much appreciated. I have actually undergone a lactulose breath test about 2 months ago in order to get a baseline formed for a further test on Lactose & Fructose intolerance. To my surprize the lactulose breath test showed no result whatsoever. I didn't produce the gas Hydrogen. Apparently I am one of the small percent who produce methane only.

Based on this, I am not sure if a person that usually doesn't produce Hydrogen, if they would if they had SIBO. What are your thoughts on this?Also, I am not sure if you are aware of the HPI therapy available in Australia. If you are interested in learning about it, I am happy to email you the protocol. Any thoughts & feedbacks you have would be very much appreciative not only to me but others who are contemplating having it done.Kind Regards,Brad

 

[SpAsMaN*]

The problem with the antibiotic as a treatment of SIBO is that their is no worldwide protocol.If you are a methane producer,you can use Neomycin like the recent research shows.Thanks for the HPI protocol.HPI is the cure for C-difficile and i heard few cured for IBD(i don't know if they used antibiotic prior to the infusion).I still think it is worthed.

 

[22663]

quote:Originally posted by SpAsMaN*:The problem with the antibiotic as a treatment of SIBO is that their is no worldwide protocol.If you are a methane producer,you can use Neomycin like the recent research shows.What recent research shows that you can use neomycin if you are an methane producer?Thanks for the HPI protocol.HPI is the cure for C-difficile and i heard few cured for IBD(i don't know if they use antibiotic prior).I still think it is worthed.

The protocol details clearly that you need to go on 2 weeks of Antibiotics while maintaining a low fibre diet before the infusion.

 

[SpAsMaN*]

Neomycin:http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/712...081/r/357109081

 

[22663]

quote:Originally posted by SpAsMaN*:Neomycin:http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/712...081/r/357109081

Thanks Spasman

 

[22663]

Now I have the headache of deciding which Antibiotic to take. Rifampicin or Neomycin. As mentioned above, Neomycin definitely showed a change in symptons. However, I may have already developed a resistance to it. Who knows.

& Rifampicin might do nothing.

 

[SpAsMaN*]

Follow the protocol.If they recommand only Rifa,then go for it.HPI seems to be the better option.Anyway,Neomycin is better for type C and you never know what will happen after the course.Eg;If symptoms return to what it was.

 

[SpAsMaN*]

Do you know why they recommand a 2 weeks course?At first,i didn't knew they were using this.Eg:When someone will die of C-difficile,do they use 2 weeks of antibio?I don't think so.

 

[SpAsMaN*]

I will reread the protocol.

 

[22663]

Hi Spasman,The protocol actually mentions 3 Antibiotics selected by Dr Thomas Borody. Basically, based on a case by case basis he will recommend one to take for a 2 week period. Also, worth mentioning the three antibiotics are:Vancomycin - An Extremely hard to get Antibiotic in Australia & therefore is not used in the program anymore according to the head nurse at the centreMetronidazole - Useless for meRifampicin - This is the one I've been given a 2 week prescription for. Lucky me (Sarcasm).My plan was to simply substitute Rifampicin with Neomycin instead seeing that I have had very positive results with it. Thing is, I do not know if I have formed any bacteria resistance to it. Also, I would have to go to my local GP & explain this to them. That will definitely not be fun.Dr Thomas Borody is away until early next year, so I can't merely ring him and get his recommendation as much as I would like too.Regards,Brad

 

[SpAsMaN*]

Does Neomycin is allowed?In my case,i haven't felt very well with Rifaximin so i think i would use Neomycin if it is allowed.

 

[22663]

I wouldn't say it is either allowed or not allowed. In my case if I inform Dr Borody that neomycin alleviated symptons dramatically I presume he would prescribe that for me.