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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am reading some really scientific discussions going on today so forgive me ahead of time that I am not that educated on this topic...I have read archived messages in the past where people discussed leaky gut syndrome and/or (I believe) effects on one's gut permeability. I also believe I recall flux and others saying that if the permeability of your gut was truly affected then you would get really sick in other ways and not have ibs only. Only meaning only symptom, not that ibs isn't severe enough in istelf. I may be butchering this whole idea but my main question is, what other kind of really sick...how else would one's body react if gut permeability is your problem? I hope this question makes sense...thanks.
 

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You might do some internet searches for leaky gut or impermeability. I've wondered for quite some time about the same diagnosis for me - 'cause I have a lot more going on than "IBS" alone. Many conventional doctors don't believe in leaky gut, by the way.
 

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A little bit that I read from physical conditions that doctors do think could cause leaky gut (I think what they don't believe is leaky gut as an explaination for a bunch of vague symptoms...every couple of years a diffent popular explaination is given as a diagnosis to explain to people why they don't feel 100% healthy all the time--the diagnosis of the month changes from time to time, most of the time they are either things that proper testing shows only a small subset of people who feel yucky but are generally healthy actually have this but many are given the diagnosis without proper testing, or the diagnosis is generally associated with organic diseases that are not present in the generally healthy but feel yucky people).In organic diseases that cause problems with gut permeability first off you have the organic disease making you sick and most of those would have serious symptoms. Anyway the increased permeability of the gut may also muck up the efficient working of the small intestine so you don't absorb nutrients properly and that can make you very sick over time. Malabsorption isn't just an I feel yucky on some days kinda thing. Chronic malabsorption can make you quite ill as the nutrients are needed to support vital processes and when you don't have the vitamins etc that you need serious illnesses can result (the reason we have RDA's for things is that is what you need to keep from getting any of the various illnessess due to vitamin deficiencies)K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html
 

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Well, I have felt yucky just about every day for 2-3 years - sometimes way yucky, sometimes mildly yucky...many things going on. At one point my gastro. doc thought I might have had a nutrient malabsorption problem (and I'd lost lots of weight) - and my nutritionist had earlier found that I had many deficiencies. After much work, I gradually gained 16 pounds back (still 10 lb under, but I can't necessarily regularly eat many of the higher-calorie foods). However, still my highly reputable internist shrugged off the idea of "leaky gut" (like it didn't exist) and suggested instead celiac's (which I apparently do not have). So, it's discouraging...Your explanation, kmottus, sounds quite reasonable - but I still sense from my own experience and reading that some/many? docs don't even want to consider a permeability problem.
 

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There are specific tests that can be done to determine if the gut is leaky and as far as I've looked so far these problems have been confirmed in people with Crohn's, celiac, long-term alcholism, but not generally healthy but feel yucky types.Although there is one article about the history of the leaky gut hypothesis, no on-line abstract but it is at our library here. Usually when doctors "don't want to go there" it is usually because it sounded like a good idea but someone has already shown that it is not really an explaination for what people wanted it to be an explaination for.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html
 

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thanks, k. I might ask my doc again about a permeability test (D-Xylose). we were going to do that last year, but his office screwed up - and I blew it off. sounds like you're of the belief, though, that extra permeability hasn't necessarily been proven for people other than Chron's, etc., types? so, the Xylose test may show nothing for me anyway (wouldn't be surprised if it wouldn't)? 'course, Mike NoLo's thinking about food and chemical sensitivities could be another angle......
 

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confetti - sorry to steal your thread. at any rate, you should find lots of info. on the internet. (but sometimes, of course, it is written by marketing types wanting you to buy their products.) I will say that 1-2 years ago we did have a nutritionist/researcher onboard who very much believed in leaky gut for the "masses" (well, not just for the superill) and who said she was a poster child for it. confusing to know what to believe.
 

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It may make sense to do the test. Most of what I could find on a quick medline search was leaky gut associated with particular diseases.My impression is that there are some in the alt. med who may be using leaky gut to explain symptoms that may or may not be linked to known, demonstrable leaky gut.Kinda like alot of people got told in the 1980's they had hypoglycemia as a blanket this is why you feel bad, without ever going through testing that can prove things one way or another. The healthy but feel yucky includes an awful lot of people, much of which could probably be improved through lifestyle changes like getting enough sleep, enough exercise and a good nutritious diet and lots of people find these 3 things difficult to do. I think that people like having a diagnosis that explains the yuckies and that gets people looking for the disease that caused they problem rather than doing the lifestyle overhaul (that's hard work...just give me some pills/herbs/etc to take that will fix me).Since leaky gut is testable, it may make sense to do the test (esp. since your doc was willing to test you for it) esp if there is some indication it may either turn something up or give you peace of mind.Here is a link to the fad diagnosis phenomenon http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/fad.html (this site is planning to post something on leaky gut)K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 06-18-2001).]
 

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Well generally it is fix the underlying organic disease that is causing the problem, or avoid what causes the underlying problem (like stop drinking if it is from alcoholism, don't eat wheat if your a celiac). And I think they may do some supplementation with concentrated nutritional things to make sure your getting enough in. So far I haven't found any how to treat leaky gut when that is the sole problem (in anything that is solid, like Medline or Merck). But I may look at that one article from the library and see if it does anything. Although there are plenty of web sites out there who will sell you a wheelbarrow full of supplement that supposedly fix the problem as well as diets that are probably relatively healthy as fixing a poor diet is one way to fix the healthy but feel yucky syndrome.
quote:Beneficial supplements for leaky gut syndrome.Natural digestive enzymes - from plant (e.g. bromelain, papain) or pancreatic animal tissues (porcine, bovine, lamb) and aloe vera juice with high MPS concentration (good brands are International Aloe, Earthnet and Royal);stomach enhancing supplements- betain and pepsin, glutamic acid, stomach bitters, apple cider vinegar; amino acids - L-glutamine, N-acetyl-glucosamine (NAG)essential fatty acids - milled flax, flax seed oil, evening primrose oil, borage oil, olive oil, fish oil, black current seed oil; soluble fiber - pysillium seed husks and powder, apple and citrus pectin, the rice derived gamma oryzanol;antioxidants- carotenoids, B complex. vitamin C, E, zinc, selenium, germanium, coenzyme Q10, bioflavinoids, especially quercetin, catechin, hesperidin, rutin and proanthocyanidins (pycnogonals, grape seed extract, pine bark extract, bilberry; herbsand plant extracts - kudzu, various high chlorophyll containing green drinks like spirulina, chlorella and blue-green algae, burdock, slippery elm, Turkish rhubarb, sheep sorrel, licorice root, ginger root, goldenseal, bismuth and bentonite.Combination Green Foods - two excellent products are Green Life (bioquest) and Greens+ (Supplement Plus).Diet recommended from this site To reverse the leaky gut syndrome the diet must be completely changed to one which is as hypoallergenic as possible. Sugar, white flour products, all gluten containing grains (especially wheat, barley, oats and rye), milk and dairy products, high fat foods, caffeine products, alcohol and hidden food allergies determined by testing must all be eliminated for long periods of time (several years in the more severe cases).
I love that they set you up with the if it isn't helping you haven't done it long enough thing. The old it isn't the treatment that failed it is the patient just didn't respond yet tactic.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 06-18-2001).]
 

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I guess I hadn't done the treatment for long enough!
e.g., I finally gave up avoiding wheat like the plague and started cheating a bit...feel just the same when I eat a bit of wheat as when I rarely came near it for months and months.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
kmottus, what is your opinion, or what has the research shown, of the overuse of antibiotics leading to this problem. By overuse I mean taking antibiotics every other month at its peak.
 

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p.s. oh, yes, I agree that it appears some people may be reluctant to make major lifestyle changes. it can be sooo important to do so. I feel one of the "good things" about my illness is that I made quite a few significant - hopefully permanent - changes. (ok, so I eat wheat and sugar occasionally, but...) I am now one of the healthiest unhealthy persons around.
seriously, exercising, eating well, breathing well, etc., can only help...perhaps your chronic illness won't be totally "cured" by lifestyle changes, but you can at least give yourself a better shot at feeling not quite as bad - and possibly at preventing certain future ailments. wish I'd gone on my campaign earlier!
 

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I can't find anything on the overuse of antibiotics causing this (although some of the IMO less reliable web sites did mention it, but there is a stong anti-antibiotic movement and so alot of the fad diagnosis-type things tend to have antibiotic use as a potential cause--especially because most people took some antibiotic at some point in there life).NSAID use and alcohol abuse both seem to have evidence linking them to increased intestinal permeability.Oh I checked the history paper...it's on leaky gut in ICU patients as a reason for morbity and mortality of very sick people, so isn't really applicable to the healthy but don't feel good all the time sort of thing.K.Actually this one is interesting from both this and the lactobacillus debate. I need to find how solid the statement about lactobacillus and overgrowth is, but this is a study of patients using one of the NSAIDs.AuthorsGotteland M. Cruchet S. Verbeke S.InstitutionGastroenterology Unit, Institute of Nutrition and Food Technology (INTA), University of Chile, Santiago, Chile. mgottela###uec.inta.uchile.clTitleEffect of Lactobacillus ingestion on the gastrointestinal mucosal barrier alterations induced by indometacin in humans.SourceAlimentary Pharmacology & Therapeutics. 15(1):11-7, 2001 Jan.Local MessagesHSL currently receives; holdings are incomplete.AbstractBACKGROUND: Chronic nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) ingestion strongly affects the gastrointestinal mucosa as a first stage before ulceration. Some Lactobacillus strains may stabilize the mucosal barrier by increasing mucin expression, reducing bacterial overgrowth, stimulating mucosal immunity and synthetizing antioxidant substances; these events are altered in NSAID-associated gastroenteropathy. AIM: To determine whether ingestion of the probiotic Lactobacillus GG (LGG) protects the gastrointestinal mucosa against indometacin-induced alterations of permeability. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Four gastrointestinal permeability tests were carried out in random order in 16 healthy volunteers: (i) basal; (ii) after indometacin; (iii) after 5 days of living LGG ingestion before indometacin administration; (iv) after 5 days of heat-killed LGG ingestion before indometacin administration. RESULTS: Indometacin significantly increased basal sucrose urinary excretion (29.6 mg and 2 over black square]; [1 and 2 over black square]7.1-42.1] vs. 108.5 mg [68.2-148.7], P=0.0030) (means [95% CI]) and lactulose/mannitol urinary excretion (1.03% [0.73-1. 32] vs. 2.93% and 2 over black square]; [1 and 2 over black square].96-3.90], P=0.00012). Heat-killed LGG did not modify the indometacin-induced increase of gastrointestinal permeability, while live bacteria significantly reduced the alteration of gastric (47.8 mg [31.1-64.6], P=0.012) but not intestinal permeability induced by NSAID. CONCLUSIONS: Regular ingestion of LGG protects the integrity of the gastric mucosal barrier against indometacin, but has no effect at the intestinal level.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html
 
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