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Yep, it is the first bit of milk (usually this is from cows) that a mother produces after giving birth.It has antibodies in it which is why people think it is good for you, but I assume they are antibodies to things that make cows sick, not people sick, since most of the comercial products are from cows.There are people that claim it does all sorts of things, but I don't know if anything has been proven, and I'm a skeptic because of the whole a lot of things that make cows sick don't even infect humans thing.K.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yes, but aren't there immunoglobulins that are non-specific, rather than antibodies which are specific to say some form of cow disease. In addition there are growth factors, which as far as I am aware are almost identical to the human growth factors found in human colostrum. Growth factors can stimulate repair of damaged tissue. There seems to be a whole host of other stuff, like cytokines and lysozymes too.
 

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I just don't know that what is good for keeping a baby cow healthy is really designed to keep an adult human healthy.BTW, I though people were all against cow growth factors when we give them to cows to boost milk production?? But a lot of people swear up and down they help them. (like most alt. med things...there are those that swear it is the cure for everything and usually no evidence to show that it works for anything).It's one of the things that I've never really seen the point in taking, but that is just my opinion. Now Medline has a few studies that show some effect with acute illnesses, but in IBS there isn't any infection for the stuff to work against, and the growth factors thing seems to have mixed results in sports performance area (again how that helps with IBS I dunno). Although some of the studies with diarrhea they got the cows sick with what they wanted to protect the humans agains (some things do cross species and infect more than one, but not everything does).No studies in irritable bowel at all so what good it might do is all speculation.But most of the promotors of it seem to be of the opinion it cures pretty much everything.Some of the growth factors are fairly similar to human, others are not. Depends on which one. (that is true of most proteins, some are more conserved than others across species). I'm not sure how wise adding random hormones to the body is in general, but that is me. Growth factors may promote cancer in some cases, I mean one of the ways to treat cancers is to block the growth hormones that promote it's growth. K.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes, I share your concerns with alt. medicines, they tend to be branded as cure-alls, and targeted at vulnerable people.I don't see where you are coming from with about the difference between cow disease and human disease. I am not taking cow antibodies. The factors, and immunoglobulins 'may' stimulate the immune system, of course as you say it is not known whether taking cow colostrum, will have this effect, and will it work in pill form?Everything I have been reading recently is pointing out that at least one form of IBS is probably bacterial overgrowth or candida overgrowth (and I feel confident that my IBS is not related to any anxiety or food or anything. I have kept food diaries, mood diaries etc and there is no correlation to anything). If that is the case, and my immune system is clearly not dealing effectively with it, then it would be worth a try to stimulate it. Its far from precise, and far from specific. But what is the alternative? Taking loperamide everyday? Thats hardly desirable either. I would be far more worried about the long term effects of taking an opiate related drug every day.For what its worth, I have been taking it for 2 days now, and so far have had no diarrhoea, which is fairly unusual - I have stopped taking antispasmodics (they were causing urinary retention) and loperamide, and I had a fairly unpleasant day the day before I took them, and usually a bout lasts for 2 or 3 days.I shall keep you posted.
 

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The bacteria in SIBO are things your immune system sees as totally normal flora of the body and stimulating it won't make any difference.You have to alter the motility of the small intestine to alter SIBO.Your immune system doesn't attack bacteria that are supposed to be there. The problem in SIBO is that bacteria that are supposed to be in your body (your colon or your mouth) are in the wrong spot, because the small intestine is not flushing itself out properly. The immune system isn't the big player in keeping a normal small intestine relatively free of bacteria.
quote:I am not taking cow antibodies. The factors, and immunoglobulins
http://www.answers.com/topic/antibody "The terms antibody and immunoglobulin are often used interchangeably" Some immunoglogulins are non-specific some are. The CLINICAL TRIALS with colostrum in cows that work in human against acute diarrhea are ones where they primed the cows so there were specific antibodies to the specific disease.How many of the cow diseases the colostrum would protect you against are actually things people get I do not know, and it depends on what the cow is exposed to which ones it has.And while everyone always assumes the more active the immune system is the healthier it will be, as one who sufferes asthma and allergies there is such a thing as an overly active immune system (which by the way would give you diarrhea as well, histamine which is one of the factors released by the immune system causes you to release lots of water and mucus into the colon and makes the muscles push everything out...had a bad reaction to an allergy shot once and the poor doctor had to come see me in the toilet to give me a shot of Benedryl...fortunately the shot needed to be given in the butt and my pants were already down
)And again, the effect of taking growth factors your body is not supposed to have that may make cancers grow faster or have other effects may not be beneficial either. We just don't know. Do not assume because it is in nature it is always going to be more safe than something that comes in a pill from a drug company.K.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
quote:Your immune system doesn't attack bacteria that are supposed to be there.
This is simply not true.If this was indeed the case we would all be dead. When you have a sore throat, of bacterial origin, the bacteria is a often part of the normal microflora of your skin and throat. So assuming what you are saying is true, without antibiotics, everyone would die of a throat infection, as the bacteria would proliferate unchecked. In fact 30% of people carry Staphylococcus aureus and are normally unaffected by it. But this bacteria is the cause of many skin infections. So by your way of thinking people who normally carry staph aureus who got a boil would never recover.Altering the motility of the g-i tract is treating the symptoms and not the cause of a disease. Unless you believe that the cause of IBS is altered gut motility (for comparison, would you say that the cause of depression is low mood?)- self-evidantly nonsense, this is the outcome of some other process. If the cure for IBS was to regulate gut motility then I would be 'cured' by taking drugs that increase the g-i transit time - this again is not the case. I can control my symptoms but am not cured.The small intestine, and any mucosal surface in your body has a microflora of bacteria, viruses and fungi. You are never relatively free of bacteria. Often the problem is an alteration in the surface environment which favours one bacterium/virus/fungus more than before which allows it to proliferate. Thus what was before a normal inhabitant of your bowel (or where ever) becomes pathogenic. Increased number of these things can release toxic substances or just by altering the proportion of the microflora can alter your ability to digest certain foods.If the immune system (a term which should include more than just antibodies) isn't responsible for keeping normal microflora, then what is?When you go to the toliet, you don't flush out the bacteria etc that would be a disaster. You need these things. Thats why a lot of people take probiotics, which would be rather pointless if you flushed them out every time you went to the toliet. In fact when you take antibiotics, you end up with a poo that is 80% bacteria. And this flushing out of bacteria is not in any way healthy, which is why again, alot of peope recommend taking probiotics when you are taking antibiotics.Fair enough for the stuff you said about the antibodies/immunoglobulins - it has been a good 5 years since I finished my degree, and to be honest I have forgotton huge chunks of it. Especially the finer points of the immune system!A generally overactive immune system, or even an immune system that is over active in one specific area is clearly not a good thing. But when babies drink breast milk they don't get allergic reactions etc. The problem is that we are unsure of what the effects of taking colostrum when you are an adult, and that is complicated by the fact it is cow colostrum.I have read that the immunoglobulins are being 'oversold' and there are other more beneficial components of the colostrum.From what you have written it would seem that you are only willing to take medicines that have been tested incredibly extensively and have been proven, not just to work, but to have no long term side effects. Is there such a drug? I would have said paracetamol/acetomenophin but recently there has been some doubt cast over it, regards its effects on asthma suffers.Taking any herbal or alternative therapies could potentially cause adverse effects.Do you trust drug companies? I am not saying sellers of colostrum or other alt. medicines are saints and to be trusted, but I mean drug companies? Time and time again they have suppressed information regarding the safety of their medincines. They are the funders of the studies and it is not illegal for them to choose not to release information that may harm sales. Seroxat is a classic example.I guess in the end you take your chances, but since I have tried: dietary change, hypnotherapy, Lomotil (diphenoxylate hydrochloride and atropine sulfate), mebeverine, dicyclomine, loperamide, aloe vera, prebiotics, probiotics, codiene, and a variety of herbal preparations and none has worked , I am more than prepared to risk whatever in the pursuit of having a normal life.
 

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Your body does not attack normal flora. It does attack infections (which sometimes is things on the outside that get inside) but there are SUPPOSED TO BE bacteria in the colon. Ask anyone.SIBO is (again ask anyone) bacteria the NORMALLY live in the colon and mouth that cause NO PROBLEMS when they live in the colon or mouth but get a hold in the small intestine because of altered motility.I don't know how else to explain it.I love when people make all sorts of assumptions about me. I don't hate alt med or love drug companies, but I do think people need to look at all the evidence to make good choices and I wish more things had good clinical trialsI suppose you MISSED the clinical trials I talked about under which situations this stuff MIGHT work???I hope you find something that works for you.I'm bowing out of this conversation, I upset you wayyyyyy too much.K.
 
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Oh 'eck - sounds scary - still producing that stuff, 5 YEARS after giving birth - actually if all else fails, could be a wet nurse (too much information perhaps!!).Sue
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
you've not upset me in any way and I have no wish to engage in idle speculation over the causes of IBS, itself a wildly variable sydrome that probably is not one condition.BUT I am taking issue over your comments on the immune systems role in maintaining a healthy microflora, they are simply utter nonsense. I agree there is bacteria present in the gut, hence "microflora". That is what I said. We agree. But that does not mean that your immune system does not attack them. It does - the immune system attacks anything non-self, ie not you, immune disorders arise when the self/non-self rules fail and the immune system attacks 'self'). But while it attacks them, this does not mean that it totally destroys all of them, a balance is noramly achieved, a balance which can be altered if you are immunosuppresed and then you can have candidaisis or bacterial overgrowth. The bacteria involved in the overgrowth are normal microflora (or in the case of candidaisis, the obviously the candida was a normal constituent of the microflora) bacteria, but because the immune system is weakened they are allowed to grow and proliferate unchecked and cause disease. This shows without doubt that the immune system is crucially involved in the regulation of mucosal surface microflora.And the fact that you seem confused over the role of the immune system in physiological and pathological states can be used to infer you are not a reliable source of knowledge in other fields.
 

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There is an excellent post by flux discussing Pimental's work on bacterial overgrowth in IBS.I am trying to explain what that leading expert in the field and the research on SIBO in IBS says, but I guess you know better than either he, or me why bacteria grow inappropriately in the small intestine.You might also be interested in this, but I am sure your sources of information must be correct and this article is wrong as well http://members.jorsm.com/~binstock/cd5-iga.htm It discusses how the immune system and the microflora develop in infants and how the colonic flora is normally seen as "self".K.
 

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quote:not a reliable source of knowledge in other fields
*LOL* Oh, thank you, kiisu for my first and probably best laugh of the day!As a new member, you might want to do a little research before you make such statements. Kath happens to be VERY knowledgeable...her PhD would be a good indication of that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Right assuming that the immune system does not in any way interefer with the intestinal microflora, why then when someone is immunosuppressed, do the bacteria or fungi present proliferate and cause disease?Does this not imply that normally they are held in check (not completely eradicated) by the immune system?I have never dismissed the idea that bacterial overgrowth may be the cause of IBS. Why do you keep harping on about it?If it is indeed bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine that causes IBS, what causes the bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine? If there is not normally colonic bacteria in the small intestine, what normally stops it from being there? If the gut microflora is under normal circumstances recognised as 'self' (though this is far from clear despite your link - there are many aspects to the immune system), then it figures that an alteration in immune function may still cause an imbalance in the microflora (possibly by eradicating one baterium (that is now no longer recognises as self) allowing other bacteria or fungi to proliferate- for example the immune system targeting the microflora in the small intestine, allowing the colonic bacteria a foothold). And that is what I have been saying: that the immune system must be responsible for maintainence of healthy microflora.You said: "It does attack infections (which sometimes is things on the outside that get inside) but there are SUPPOSED TO BE bacteria in the colon."But there are plenty of situations when bacteria or fungi that are meant to be in the colon cause disease, eg in immunosuppressed people."SIBO is (again ask anyone) bacteria the NORMALLY live in the colon and mouth that cause NO PROBLEMS when they live in the colon or mouth but get a hold in the small intestine because of altered motility."Are you saying that colonic microflora is the same as oral microflora? And how would altered motility account for altered microflora? Don't you get the altered motility as a result of the bacteria overgrowth? In which case why does treating the motility problem have no effect on medium or long term symptoms?I may not know better than you or Pimental (and I hope for the love of god I don't otherwise there is no prospect that progress will be made!), but you have done nothing to convince me of his or your case. There needs to be a lot of evidence before it is accepted as the truth, take the MMR vaccination 'scare' in the UK.I may be a new member, though how that would affect my knowledge of physiology is unclear.
 

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Read Pimental's explaination on Flux's thread.It is new information about how the motility through the small intestine is messed up.I can' say it a thousand times, you won't believe me.Normal movement of stuff through the small intestine prevents overgrowth. He has found how the motility becomes abnormal in IBSers which allows overgrowth in the small intestine. Vast numbers of bacteria living in the colon is normal, not something your body has to fight against continually, they are supposed to be there and your body leaves them be.It has been known for decades that people with other disorders that mess up transit through the small intestine are the ones that get SIBO.I NEVER said oral and colonic microflora are the SAME
When they take samples of bacteria in patients with SIBO the bacterial species they see are ones that normally live in the mouth, or normally live in the colon (where they are not attacked by the immune system or you would have chronic inflamation in the colon or the mouth BTW). And it appears that when you lose the tolerance you have for normal colonic flora this may be a step towards getting an inflamatory bowel disease. You really want your body to see normal flora as self, you don't want it attacking it
Pimentals NEW info shows how using antibiotics AND drugs that effect MOTILITY in the small intestine can eliminate IBS in many patients.I can't make you go read the thread about MMC's and motility and using zelnorm and erythromycin and how that all works, but I did and it really does seem he is on to something that NO ONE in either the alt. med community or the medical community has really gotten a handle on up until now.I do not know why you also refuse to believe I did read it or it actually says what it says.It is NEW information. Like REALLY NEW. Like figured out in the last YEAR or so, and it hasn't filtered through the entire medical and alternative medical community.I really don't see the point in this.You will find a way to twist everything I say, so this really is the last response I have for you.Good luck in finding what works for you.K
 
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