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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, NoLo Mike:More questions for you (see also the pH thread)!Do you know of likely reasons other than, that is, food sensitivities, that can cause nerves to "overreact" in various places throughout the body? I do have a mild auto. nervous system disorder (as most of us with IBS really do, I'd think). But why would some nerves just go "whacky"...for months on end? I'm finally getting a bit of relief, I'm sure, simply because I had a few days of heavy-duty painkillers following some surgery a few weeks ago. The painkillers seem, for the time being, to have quieted down my nerves. Anyway, no offense, but I'm sure there must be some reasons, in addition to or instead of, food sensitivity for nerve problems? I'm not a "nervous" person, except v. occasionally, and I'd been leading a super-healthy lifestyle (exercise, really being careful about my diet, etc.). Frankly, in general, I did better in some ways when I was on my former yucky diet!
Also, in the absense of "known" disease, how often can "damaged" nerves repair themselves? I feel like I have damaged nerves!Any quick, easy (brief
) explanations? Thanks!------------------Cultivate gratitude. Believe in possibilities.[This message has been edited by HipJan (edited 11-15-2000).]
 

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quote:that is, food sensitivities, that can cause nerves to "overreact" in various places throughout the body?
They do? What exactly does it mean to overreact?
quote:I do have a mild auto. nervous system disorder
And you think that because?
quote:really do, I'd think). But why would some nerves just go "whacky"...for months on end?
I am only guessing what you mean by this here, but there are basically two schools of camp on cause for vague body wide conditions like these such as chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia and multiple chemical sensitivity syndrome. One is that they are real conditions that are caused by a naturally occuring pathology (implying a gene defect) affecting the body's fine control over homeostasis, as if they just can't get the thermostat set right and the other is that the conditions do not exist but are caused by the brain's overrreaction to stress (e.g somatiform).
 

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CFS and FMS should not be described as 'vague' conditions. The only vagueness surrounding these illnesses are poor understanding of why they occur. The illnesses themselves - the symptoms and the mechanisms behind symptoms - are well understood. CFS and FMS are illnesses characterised by abnormal response to infections, antibiotics, vaccinations and viruses, and then ongiong dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system, the immune system and the endocrine system ( Hypothalamic - pituatry - adrenal axis supression , not the sex hormones). Autonomic nervous system dysfunction probably accounts for some of the symptoms such as IBS which are common in patients with CFS. Other factors affecting IBS symptoms are hypersensitivity and oversensitivity to stimulants and environmental factors, and heightened pain perception. The following article makes for interesting reading and mentions studies into genetics: http://www.masscfids.org/Klimas.html susansusan
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
thanks for the responses.
flux -- You tell me what it means for nerves to overreact! Ahh, you don't believe me!...I know I have ANS problems because an MD (who used to work for the prestigious Baylor College of Medicine, testing patients for ANS disorders) told me so; plus, it didn't surprise me in the least given my symptoms and history. The gene defect theory sounds interesting ... the "stress" theory is so tired (and incomplete, in my opinion), though not without some merit. So, is there some standard practice for quieting down the nerves, etc., and achieving homeostasis? My plan of attack is simply maintaining a very healthy lifestyle, making sure my nutritional needs are met, exercising, relaxing, etc. ws -- You about have me convinced, through our other discussions too, that I have had CFS (though I don't like that name for it...misleading to me!). That's what my nutritionist has always told me as well.
 

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HI JAN OF THE HIP....Sorry did not see your post...been elsewhere today. There are actaully more than 2 schools of thought, and this one I speak of is not a "thought" since it is a chemical process which is visible, a visiblereaction, and the function and efects of the chemicals released or formed in the reaction are already known.In simple terms, when the "circulating" immune cells or the "tissue" immune cells are triggered (appropriatley in response to pathogens or inappropriately in the form of one or more types of hypersensitivity responses) the common denominator is that the END RESULT IS THE SAME.As there are several roads to a destination, the immunologic function of the body exhibits many pathways. At the end of each, there are chemicals released from these cells that have powerful effects on the tissues of the body and on each other (sometimes new chemicals are formed or synthesized after an initial reaction).The chemicals are the chemicals of various types and degress of "inflammatory" reactions. Some are very specific ("eosinophilia can be seen for example) and some are mild and none specicif, and may not elicit much response from other cell types.So these chemical stimulate other immune cells sometimes to come to a site of action to take part in the action, they cause blood vessels to leak as the spaces between the cells open to allow free movement of celles between the intrvascular compartment and extravascular compartment, and cells from inside the blood vessel sometimes leave the blood vessel and move into the surrounding tissue, yadda yadda.Now, if you elicit a reaction within the circulatory system it does not remain localized. The chemicals are released and then circulate throughout the body. The various interfaces between blood and things outside the blood vessel (all the different tissues of the body) are to varying degrees "permeable"...sometimes their permeability is altered by the cehemicals of reaction. I simple terms some of these chemical mediators do not just sit in the plasma they move out of the plasma, and so do cells (sometimes) that contain more. So they affect any tissue or cells they come into contact with, including smooth muscle, skeletal muscle, exocrine cells, and nerve tissue. They can even move into brain tissue and nerve tissue in the spine and anywhere.This is especially problematic where unmyelinated nerves are (nerves without a myelin sheath around them). As you have read there are unmyelinated nerves in the myenteric plexus as well.The presence of certain of these chemicals can alter the apparent stimulus threshold of certain nerves, making them responsive to a lower stimulus, or respond more strongly to a given stimulus, or elecit a response spontaneously.This is why people who suffer food intolerance of an immunologic nature, or pharmacotoxic or cytotoxic reactions (all of which cause release of cytoplasm thus intracellular leukotrienes, cytokines, histamine, etc)get more than just local symptoms. The degree of severity, breadth of clinical symptoms and reaction threshold ("symptomologic sets") vary. But the bottom line is, when a granulocytic reaction occurs in the gut microvasculature in the course of an inappropriate (hypersensitivity) reaction to a food additive, chemical, or food element, the effects are often not only local but systemic as well since that blood flows OUT of the gut as fast as it flows IN, the reactions occur within the blood stream in proportion to degree of reactivity, dose and time, and the mediators are dirtibuted throughout the body up to and including the CNS. Same if an allergenic substance is absorbed directly through the buccal mucosa. A local reaction may occur, but systemic reactions as well as the "allergen" enters the bloodstream via the microvasculature.One of the reason this is so poorly understood by many people, including people of great knowledge, is very, very few people spend their time studying this. This includes most of the medical schools who rely on research for funding and vice versa, or commerical research centers. These are authorities that people who say it does not happen draw their info from. Part of it is elegantly simple based upon what makes the world go round in medicien. There is no funding for such work from the major funding sources such as drug companies.This kind of phenomenon means if you find it and avoid the cause the symptoms just go away so there is not product at the the end of theresearch work per se. Plus the technology to evaluate these phenomena have been for decades at best unreliable due to the methods employed. while there is sophistcated machinery analyzing immune reactions in seeminglt sophistcated ways, the problem is HOW they make indirect measurements and WHAT THEY ARE TRYIN TO DETECT. Simply put, analyzing and forming conclusions on the funtion of an engine by looking only at, say, the fuel system. Sometimes you get the real source of the probles and sometimes you get a RESULT of the problem, and sometimes you get a part of the mechanism of the problem. The trick is to tell which is which.However, there are a few people who have spent many years looking at these reactions and seeking ways to quantify them. technologies have been found in prior years which could show part of it, or with some degree of accuracy, but each has its weak spot.Since the ability to do that with some reasonable accuracy is so new as to be nacent, (like just a couple of years old) there has been no broad application of it as of yet. That does not mean it has not been found, nor that plenty of secondary evidence of these reactions has not been seen. Just not that many have seen it yet. This will change as it always does as time and money are expended.People have been seeing it in various forms for over 2 decades. Now, personally, I can look at it every single day if I want to at this time. Including my own. And it is nice to see it is not an illusion, and when applied clincially produces the predicted results...take away what causes this to happen, the chemicals stay where they belong inside the cells, and the symptoms casued by the chemicals subside. The trouble is it is too damsn simple for some people.That is basically a very simple way to describe an exceedingly complex set of physiologic actions.I am going to lunch now and will work to not eat anything to elicit a "granulocyte or lymphocyte response'!Have a DFDMNL_________________ www.leapallergy.com PS: I suspect the main reason the gene theory is popular is a)it is the buzz word of the times b)genomics, from a venture capital perspective, is the 'DOT COM' of the new millenium c)gene therapy is a potential "product", combined with
and you have access to money..and you do not at this time have to prove a thing except that we DO NOT SEEM TO KNOW the etiology THEREFORE it must be genetic...BOINK...A new Business plan is born.From what has been seen in the places I get to go (on this Planet as well as Mars) the degree of genetic involvement in this is going to be that some specific sub-population is going to show a genetic predisposition to developing loss of tolerance...hypersensitivity reactions...so they will be more susceptible to the beginning of these reactions at a lower dose-time level (younger age-of-onset).Now that part is likely to prove out. But that some 43 year old person gets IBS from a genetic defect...no way Jose. But here comes another subset of "post inflammatory loss of tolerance" (post infection and antibiotics), another subset of "post NSAID overuse loss of tolerance", etc. Bottom line is there will be seen in the blood of these people granulocytes,lymphocytes,and even platelets reacting that should not react, and it does NOT FIT the tidy old fashioned classification system of GEL & Coombs.OK later...that should bring out the graphicsMNL[This message has been edited by Mike NoLomotil (edited 11-16-2000).][This message has been edited by Mike NoLomotil (edited 11-16-2000).]
 

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quote:flux -- You tell me what it means for nerves to overreact!
I don't know. You have to tell your symptoms.
quote: know I have ANS problems because an MD (who used to work for the prestigious Baylor College of Medicine, testing patients for ANS disorders) told me so
And he determined this how?
quote:There are actaully more than 2 schools of thought, and this one I speak of is not a "thought".
Actually, this other school of "thought" is the first school of thought. It's just not thought out that well.
quote:pS: I suspect the main reason the gene theory is popular is a)it is the buzz word of the times b)genomics, from a venture capital perspective, is the 'DOT COM' of the new millenium c)gene therapy is a potential "product", combined with
and you have access to money..and you do not at this time have to prove a thing except that we DO NOT SEEM TO KNOW the etiology THEREFORE it must be genetic...BOINK...A new Business plan is born.
Or more simply, it's right.
 
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Hi, I've been reading all of this and I'll be honest most of it is over my head. But I've been having alot of problems with my neck and head. My neck muscles get really tight and I have muscle spasms in my shoulders and neck which then causes me to have muscle tension headaches that cause my eyes to not focus clearly it also makes my head feel like it is burning on the inside and feel like it is falling asleep kind of like your foot would if it was held in the wrong place for to long. Now I said all of this because I had a MRI done and went to phyical therapy and there seems to be no reason why I'm doing this. Muscle relaxers and pain medications do not help at all. This all seems to happen when my ibs flare ups are worse and last for a long time (like 2 or 3mo.). I didn't know if that is what you were talking about when you were discussing nerves. I've done some reading and what I could gather was that the stress on my body goes on so long and is so painful it has an effect on the nerves going to my neck and is causing all these other problems. I've mentioned it to my doctors and they really don't have much to say on the subject. I would really appreciate some imput on this because I can't function very good and it really is hard to do my day to day things that have to be done. When you can't get any help from a doctor you start wondering where to turn next. I can't live with my head this way the rest of my life. HELP!Mechelle
 

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Mechelle, after years of not getting any answers from doctors, I can say that the only way to move forward is to educate yourself as much as possible about your symptoms, regarding possible causes (though don't think you've got terrible illnesses when they list muscle spasms!), why it's happening, when it's happening, what you can do about it.susan
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for all the discussion. Mike, lots of info -- I'll have to carefully digest it later! Mechelle, yes, it's v. frustrating when we can't find out what's really going on. Have you had neck/spinal X-rays as well? flux, the doctor listened to my symptoms over 2-3 visits and also did some testing (and, like I said, he specializes in that area, also BP problems). Ian, thanks for the CFS info (I looked at it and believe I've seen it before).[This message has been edited by HipJan (edited 11-16-2000).]
 

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1. Suggested reading: EXCITOXINS, THE TASTE THAT KILLS by Russell L. Blaylock,MD with foreward by George R. Schwarz, MD. (Here is quote from this book: "Excitoxin: a substance added to foods and beverages that literally STIMULATES NEURONS to death, causing brain damage of varying degrees. Can be found in such ingredients as monosodium glutamate, aspartame (Nutrasweet), cysteine, hydrolyzed protein and aspartic acid." 2. Suggested web site for more info from NoMSG, a non-profit organization: http://www.nomsg.com.[/URL] MSG can create IBS like symptoms as well as other very serious problems!
 

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Semantic struggles with such words as "school" and "thought" set aside...-----------------------------------In the case of immune response (non-atopy) in the presence of allergen (be it an element of "food" or a :chemcial") the end-point of any reaction regardless of the mechanism can be directly measured in vitro. (Atopic reactions have long been relatively easy to isolate).In one method, the absolute quantity of intracellular contents discharged in the reaction can be identified precisely from "ribbon analysis" of the mixed circulating immune components in plasma(polymorphonuclear cells and lymphocytes loss of cell wall integrity...platelet aggregation can also be seen in some cases...the reactions are not "uniform" only the reactive elements).Or, utilizing instrumentation in a different way, the cell types can be assessed as to their relative response. Lymphocytes and polymorphonuclear cells (neutrophils, eosinophils, basophils) can be isolated very precisely, and which are degranulating and to what degree does each class of cells contribute to the total reaction.What chemical mediators are contained within the cells has already been identified, and what the physiologic affects are as well. So, one could suggest that at least in a defined subpopulation, a genetic predisposition may exist for a person to develop the aberrant reactivity, as opposed to "acquiring it" via the sometimes-postulated "loss of tolerance" mechanism. Or that subpopulation may be "predisposed to acquiring it" due to a genetic defect in tolerance to exposure. Sure, stated that way, it makes sense. The issue remains that what happens in response to what stimulus can be seen and quantified, and utilized as a tool for clinical treatment. Why it happens remains (among the immunologists and clinicians I know anyway, who spend alot of their time on this subject specifically) a matter of conjecture.Have a RFEMNL__________________ www.leapallergy.com
 

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quote:1. Suggested reading: EXCITOXINS, THE TASTE THAT KILLS by Russell L. Blaylock,MD with foreward by George R. Schwarz, MD. (Here is quote from this book: "Excitoxin: a substance added to foods and beverages that literally STIMULATES NEURONS to death, causing brain damage of varying degrees.2. Suggested web site for more info from NoMSG, a non-profit organization: http://www.nomsg.com.[/URL] MSG can create IBS like symptoms as well as other very serious problems!
 

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quote:And you determined this how?
Simple common sense. These supposedly toxic substances are eaten by people all over the world every day for ages. Do you see people coming out of restaurants looking like
 

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Flux, we know people with some conditions have different or greater to reactions to some products than people all over the world. That's why coffee gets some IBS people on the toilet for ages, and not other people. Not sure about MSG and such like though in regard to other illnesses/conditions.Ian:Unfortunately that website from King's has a lot of out of date and misleading information. It shows no appreciation of the Hypothalamic - Pituatry - Adrenal axis or the autonomic nervous system, or the shift in the immune system from the usual TH1 path to TH2 (I think that's right - you can get more info from the link I posted earlier on this thread). It posits patient behaviour and attitude as the key to illness and recovery, something which can be overestimated. It is counter-productive to link Chronic Fatigue Syndrome with other cases of chronic fatigue, moreover the first article by Wessely, which states "3: It is part of normal experience to feel very tired" shows how little the author understands the difference between fatigue and pathological exhaustion felt by CFS/ME patients. Normal experience of fatigue is characterised be recovery from tiredness, in fact the word fatigue is used by doctors as the state of tiredness following exertion which is characterised by recovery. Experience of fatigue by CFS/ME patients is of profound exhaustion which is unalleviated by rest. Therefore , "and that there exists no clear cut boundary between that sensation and the fatigue experienced in CFS" is rubbish. It is unfortunate that such beliefs persist, not simply because it infuriates patients, but because it muddies the issue and slows down research.susan
 

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Wanderingstar,Sorry, I though the introduction to the King's website at least mentioned the role of the hypothalmus-pituitay-adrenal axis.Anyway, I agree that patient behaviour & attitude as key to illness & recovery can be overstated (if this was the case many of us would have recovered years ago)- though I believe King's in conjunction with the adjacent Maudsley hospital gained some success in treating some of their CFS patients with cognitive behaviour therapy.
 
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HipJan, Thank you so much for you e-mail. It meant a lot because you took the time to send it. I didn't get your e-mail add. if you would send it to me I'll e-mail you back.I'm like you I do the exercises to strengthen my neck muscles.It just seems that when I have anything else going wrong with my body (flu, Urinary track infection, etc.) that my neck and head gets worse too.Mechelle
 

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Ian, no apologies necessary as it was the website I was grumbling about not you! Cog Behav Therapy can be useful in helping patients integrate illness into their lives, dealing with chronic disability and illness, chronic pain, and also in illnes management - learning to deal with and manage the swings in energy, and can reduce effects of psychological involvement which may prolong or worsen illness. CBT courses are being run in my area and GPs are very enthusiastic about them becuase it provides the suppport and skills necessary for illness management, and seems to be having great success in chronic pain management. But I hope nobody seriously believes that once these objectives are acomplished CBT can help rid a body of illness.susan
 
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