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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi I have been researching my ibs and have developed a theory that my ibs is not due to any inflamation of my colon (I have had the inspections) but is rather a symptom of excessive prostaglandin E2 in my body. I believe that PGE2 stimulates the excessive secretion of bicarbonate in the colon via stimulation of the EP4 receptors and this results in all the synptoms of IBS. The excessive bicarbonate causes irritation of the colon , burning sensation on defacation and raises the pH level above that at which the normal bacteria function correctly causing gas etc.Now what causes excessive prostaglandin production - well infection for one and it may also be related to the ingestion of carbohydrate. i.e there is a link between carbohydrate and insulin (see the Zone diet). I am still researching...My symptoms are completely relieved by aspirin which acts to stop the formation of prostaglandins in the body and is an easy test.Fish oil also works to prevent the formation of PGE2 via another mechanism and hence also works to a degree but is higher maintenance.I have also noticed, and informed my gastroenterologist, of associated symptoms such as persistent joint pain, ibs-d getting worse a few days before I get sick (like a cold or flu) and a white coating on my tongue. All these are also symptoms of excessive PGE2.So why dont doctors consider this option - I have no idea. There is a lot of research relating to issues with too little bicarbonate secretion but very little on too much. I suppose this is because it is seen as a good thing however too much can also be a problem.I would like to hear from others that share the same symptoms and also benefit from cures that also effect PGE2 formation to see if my theory has merit.cheerskevin
 

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One question on your theory about one point.Normal bacteria are what cause the gas as they digest carbohydrates that you do not.If they are not functioning they are not producing gas. It is not abnormal bacteria produce gas and normal ones do not. Most normal bacteria in the colon produce gas, one subset of them, the probiotic bacteria, do not. I don't think there is a pH difference at which they live and the other normal gas producing bacteria do not
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi Kathleen M.the research I have performed seems to indicate that good bacteria enjoy a pH of around 7 and do not function as efficiently above this as some bad bacteria.The pH / Bacteria is only a side statement though as my main concern is the feeling that my stool contains an irritant - something the gastroenterologist did not seem to entertain except for the possibility of bile salt - d but I think this may on the wrong track.cheerskevin
 

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Bile salts is a common irritant in stool and causes the burning diarrhea thing.Lots of people who use things like calcium carbonate, psyllium and other soluble fibers or Questran all of which should bind bile find they help.K.
 

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Also to add further to K's excellent info--good bacteria produce fermentation which produces gas.Gas is normal.It's fermentation that also produce butyrates, which keeps colonic inflammation down & protects us from colon cancer. Fiber is good for us because bacteria use it and this creates fermentation.Taking aspirin which can increase small intestinal bacterial overgrowth over time is not good advice~~ "Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), used extensively in clinical medicine, tend to cause adverse effects in the gastrointestinal tract. ...Changes in gut flora in response to the drug were also studied, as it has been shown that luminal bacteria play a role in the pathogenesis of NSAID-induced intestinal damage. There was a significant increase in the number of bacteria in the luminal contents of the small intestine and caecum in these animals, as compared with controls. The number of bacteria adherent to the intestinal mucosa was also significantly higher in the drug-treated group....These changes may contribute to the enteropathy observed as a result of NSAID treatment."Int J Biochem Cell Biol. 2005 NovYou really aren't helping people Kevine w/ this info & your theories & unsubstantiated "research". IMO, its quite the opposite.
 

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quote:I have been researching my ibs and have developed a theory that my ibs is not due to any inflamation of my colon (I have had the inspections) but is rather a symptom of excessive prostaglandin E2 in my body. I believe that PGE2 stimulates the excessive secretion of bicarbonate in the colon via stimulation of the EP4 receptors and this results in all the synptoms of IBS.
Actually, part of your theory sounds like the theory for the mechanism of collagenous colitis.But that is not IBS. IBS is not a secretory process. I would think that if you had this going on, you'd have very severe diarrhea and the disease process would be seen on colonoscopy.I'm not sure where bicarbonate/pH fits into this at least from the mechanism you describe. If you dump Cl- into the colon, you're going to have secretory diarrhea, so the excess HCO3 (which doesn't necessarily involve PGE), is irrelevant.
quote:raises the pH level above that at which the normal bacteria function correctly causing gas etc.
Also, as K noted above, gas is the normal function of the bacteria and you want the pH to be raised to allow for the reactions to continue.
 

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I thought collagenous colitis, under the umbrella of "microscopic colitis" which also includes lymphocytic colitis, is only detected by microscopic examination of intestinal biopsy? Plus there needs to be several tissue samples from diff parts of the colon taken because its very easily missed with just one sample?Also from the microscopic colitis bb, there are some patients, not many, who don't have diarrhea as a symptom(just like some, not many, w/ UC). Some only have pain as a symptom.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi fluxIBS is a name for a cluster of symptoms that a doctor can find no obvious cause for. Having excluded known diseases, the medical profession settles on a term IBS. IBS as you well know stands for irritable bowel syndrome. Well I believe that an excess of bicarbonate can make my bowel irritable.Bicarbonate is caustic and although may irritate at high level, is the substance that actually protects our colon. This may be why IBS never progresses into something more serious - ie people have IBS their whole lives yet never develope inflamation.This is just a theory and I am hopefull that input from folk on this board will assist in providing more evidence one way or another.I am also not saying this is a diffinative cause of IBS rather there could be a sub type of IBS experienced by some people.In this case , I think, IBS may be a symptom not the disease which is why doctors can find no cause.
quote:Originally posted by flux:Actually, part of your theory sounds like the theory for the mechanism of collagenous colitis.But that is not IBS. IBS is not a secretory process. I would think that if you had this going on, you'd have very severe diarrhea and the disease process would be seen on colonoscopy.I'm not sure where bicarbonate/pH fits into this at least from the mechanism you describe. If you dump Cl- into the colon, you're going to have secretory diarrhea, so the excess HCO3 (which doesn't necessarily involve PGE), is irrelevant.
quote:raises the pH level above that at which the normal bacteria function correctly causing gas etc.
Also, as K noted above, gas is the normal function of the bacteria and you want the pH to be raised to allow for the reactions to continue.
 

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quote:IBS is a name for a cluster of symptoms that a doctor can find no obvious cause for. Having excluded known diseases,
Note the last part of what you wrote. Isn't collagenous colitis is one of them? Besides, collagenous colitis generally appears in middle-aged woman and it's probably unlikley to be confused with Rome criteria for IBS. IBS is not secretory diarrhea and couldn't have volume seen in a secretory process.
quote:Well I believe that an excess of bicarbonate can make my bowel irritable
The mechanism you describe is not how it works in the colon, so this part of your theory is DOA. Also, where is bicarbonate? Do you even have proof of an alkaline stool?
quote:Bicarbonate is caustic and although may irritate at high level, is the substance that actually protects our colon.
Huh?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi flux Have you really researched how the colon works? Bicarbonate is released into the duodenum due to a number of triggers. Increase in acid in the stomach, extention of the stomach - ie food ingestion and via PGE2 stimulation of the EP4 receptors. It is interesting to note that the EP4 receptor / prostaglandin stimulation is much greater than that caused by food or acid. Also, yes I have tested my stool over a number of months using universal indicator paper and consistently have a pH of 9-10. This is 100x more alkaline than the normal colon pH of around 7.Also, it is interesting to note that of the 6 drugs/ aids that assisted ibs-d - 5 of them had side effects of decreasing bicarbonate production. The actual mechanism of most drugs is unknown.Also, perform some research into what fish oil and apsirin have in common. Both of these help my condition.
 

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quote:Bicarbonate is released into the duodenum due to a number of triggers.
What's the duodenum have to do with the colon?
quote:Also, yes I have tested my stool over a number of months using universal indicator paper and consistently have a pH of 9-10. This is 100x more alkaline than the normal colon pH of around 7.
How many stools from other people have you also tested? Would it surprise you if they all tested at 9-10?
quote:Also, it is interesting to note that of the 6 drugs/ aids that assisted ibs-d - 5 of them had side effects of decreasing bicarbonate production..
Huh?
quote: fish oil and apsirin have in common. Both of these help my condition.
What if someone switched the aspirin with a sugar pill? Would it surprise you if it had the same effect?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
fluxYou shoudl actually attempt to be more constructive and research before you provide flippant remarks. It may amaze you to find out the duodenum empties into the colon - i.e everything in the duodenum ends up in the colon.I havent tested othe rpeople but research on the internet shows that a normal colon runs at aprox neutral i.e 7.The aspirin / sugar comment doesnt even warrant a reply as the plkcebo effect is short lived and I notices the effect of aspirin after I took it not that I took it for my disorder.Also, do some research on how Aspirin works.
 

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quote:It may amaze you to find out the duodenum empties into the colon - i.e everything in the duodenum ends up in the colon.
If that were true, we would barely be alive for a week. The duodenum empties into jejunum where the nutrients are absorbed. Bile acids and some water are absorbed in the ileum. The remainder (mostly undigested food and water) is what ends up in the colon.
quote:I havent tested othe rpeople but research on the internet shows that a normal colon runs at aprox neutral i.e 7.
There is no one colonic pH. The luminal pH varies along the length of the colon. And that is separate from the fecal pH, which you would probably find to be 9-10 in everyone else too if you had tested them with your "universal indicator" paper.
quote:The aspirin / sugar comment doesnt even warrant a reply as the plkcebo effect is short lived
The placebo effect may not only be long-lived, but even permanent.
quote:I notices the effect of aspirin after I took it not that I took it for my disorder.
Coincidence?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Flux I am really not going to wast more time arguing with you having reviewed some of your other posts. On the 21st May you stated in another message that it is normal for stool to be acidic and yet you argue with me that it may be normal to be alkaline.It seems as though you go opposite to whatever the view is. Go take some more sugar pills.I would like to get this messaqge thread back on track in terms of finding out from other people whether they experienced the same cluster of symptoms as I identified earlier in the thread.
 

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quote:May you stated in another message that it is normal for stool to be acidic and yet you argue with me that it may be normal to be alkaline.
No, I don't think your stool is alkaline. I wouldn't be surprised it were acidic. I think the problem is not with your stool; it is with your measurements!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
FluxUniversal indicator paper is relatively easy to use - just match the colour to a chart. Anyway, to get back on track - Prostaglandin induced diarrhea is well documented on the internet and I have all the symtoms including treatment that works. My theory as to the bicarbonate effect is where I make a leap but that is based on research available on the inernet showing prostaglandin (pge2) activation of EP4 cells so nothing I have stated is out of the realm of possibility.If you research prostaglandin induced diarrhea and you also research EP4 receptors / pge2 activation you will see why I made the connection.What my concern is , is why my prostaglandin level is high and has been for so many years.Ther are numerous causes including food sensitivity, insulin disorders, infection etc but I cannot understand if PGE2 induced diarrhea is so well documented why my doctors/ gastro failed to highlight the possibility.
 

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quote: Universal indicator paper is relatively easy to use - just match the colour to a chart.
So why can't you get it to work?
quote:Anyway, to get back on track - Prostaglandin induced diarrhea is well documented on the internet and I have all the symtoms including treatment that works.
Things don't get documented on the Internet. They get documented in research papers.
quote:My theory as to the bicarbonate effect is where I make a leap
You have no evidence that you have a secretory process going on yet, let alone alkaline stools.
quote:What my concern is , is why my prostaglandin level is high and has been for so many years.
How do you know it's high?
 
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