[captaincolon]

Eric, I have an urgent suggestion for you regarding these questions you raised on the other thread (Talissa's):

quote:Eric wrote:So tell me what are the little critters (abnormal gut flora) doing if not causing inflammation or infection or Alarm symptoms, because pain and discomfort is a must for the diagnoses of IBS. And alarm symptoms would suggest something other then IBS.Nor is it likely that gut flora is passing the brain barrier, so it woould have to be a messeger (neurotransmitters) of some sort that can access and have access to the brain. Most infections or patogens cause d, as the body trys to dispel them.

And-

quote:Eric wrote: Considering how many people have taken them (antibiotics) in the general population, how come everyone does not have IBS with altered gut flora?

Now, it seems obvious that you are suggesting that because of the clearly demonstrated abnormalities in the brain-gut axis of IBS patients as reported by the IBS experts/researchers, you believe that dysbiosis itself cannot possibly be the "cause" of IBS. This is because these abnormalities occur in such places as the brain, and in the nerve systems controlling the gut, while dysbiosis is inside the colon itself, in the flora, and so you feel that can't possibly be causing those other abnormalites because they are in different places. And furthermore, you are suggesting that if dysbiosis (from antibiotics, for instance) were the cause of IBS, why doesn't everyone with dysbiosis have IBS? (Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting anything you are saying).Now I'd like to reference this recent study which you posted earlier: Intestinal microecology and quality of life in irritable bowel syndrome patients And from that study, this particular quote from the "Discussion" section of the study:

quote: "Further studies are still needed. However, there was dysbacteriosis (dysbiosis) in IBS patients. Whether it is the effect or just cause of IBS remains unclear"

Now clearly, these IBS experts are suggesting that dysbacteriosis MAY possibly be the cause of IBS. And obviously, on the other side of the coin, they are also suggesting that dysbacteriosis MAY NOT be the cause of IBS. As they say, more studies are needed to resolve this. But at this point in time, they are clearly stating that there is not enough evidence to either "rule out", or to "rule in" dysbacteriosis as the cause of IBS.Now what I'd like to explore with you, my friend Eric, is the fact that these people believe that dysbacteriosis MAY be the cause of IBS. We have to keep in mind of course, that these are IBS experts who conducted this medical study which you originally posted, so I'm sure you must hold them in high esteem and trust them and believe in their conclusions. And of course, as modern IBS experts, they must be fully aware of the other medical studies you have posted here showing that there are abnormalities in the brain-gut axis of IBS patients. And also, as IBS experts, they must be fully aware that, as you pointed out, there are people who do have dysbacteriosis, yet don't have IBS. Nevertheless, despite this knowledge, these IBS experts have NOT ruled out the possibility that dysbacteriosis could be the cause of of IBS. So they must believe that there are possible explanations for those aspects you have brought up.However, amazingly, it's clear from your quotes at the beginning of this message that somehow you yourself HAVE ruled out dysbacteriosis as the cause of IBS, so you do NOT agree with these IBS experts in this conclusion of theirs! What is it that you know that they do not, my friend? Just as you feel you must aggressively "correct" anyone here who happens to suggest that dysbiosis may be the cause of IBS, by posing such questions as those at the start of this message, you certainly must also feel an urgent need to correct the "misinformation" being propogated by these IBS experts in their study when they suggest the very same thing, musn't you? Following is my urgent suggestion to you. You stated this in the other thread:

quote:Eric wrote:I am very good freinds with many of the top researchers on IBS and have been for years.

I don't know if that happens to include the IBS experts who conducted this study, but regardless, I'm sure you must feel you need to contact them ASAP about their wayward conclusions. Please do share your superior knowledge with them, and correct them in their misguided ways! Since you are already very good friends with many top IBS researchers, I'm sure you'll have no trouble commanding the attention of these experts, even if you are not already personally acquainted with them. I'm sure they will amend their study and give you many thanks and full credit for setting them straight!Here is their contact information, from the top of the study:Correspondence to: Professor Jian-Min Si, Department of Gastroenterology, Sir Run Run Shaw Affiliated Hospital of Zhejiang University, Hangzhou 310016, Zhejiang Province, China. Email: sijm###163.net And please Eric, post their reply here on this bulletin board ASAP, I'm sure it will prove to be most interesting!Sincerely,Captain Colon

 

[captaincolon]

quote:Flux wrote:How is dysbacteriosis defined? Since most of the flora can't even be identified let alone grown in culture easily, how can ever know what's normal and abnormal in the gut?

Flux, this is your lucky day! I just happen to know the perfect person to help you out with your confusion about dysbacteriosis. Amazingly, his name is also Flux! His email address is at the link below, you can contact him there. I'm sure you two will get along just fine. Here's his story, in his own words:

quote:Flux #2 wrote:I'm about to receive a radical therapy for flatulence: an attempt will be made to completely sterilize my gut with antibiotics (and then re-inoculate it with ultra-mega doses of probiotics). I'm looking to find out what experiences people have had antibiotics and their flatulence levels, either tried for this problem specifically or incidentally for another condition.From what I have read so far here and elsewhere, good results have come from amoxicillin, cephalexin, and metronidazole. One person, however, reported both good and bad results with a combination of amoxicillin and metronidazole. Interestingly, I don't recall anyone reporting just bad effects.I'm also interested in other therapies tried (but I don't mean things like grossly inffective dietary therapies), such as those with probiotics (especially with details about brand and dosages and length of therapy).

Gassy Guy Flux LinkSee Flux, this other Flux knows all about the difference between "good" and "bad" intestinal bacteria, the very things you're confused about. His chosen "therapy" to get rid of the bad and re-establish the good flora is certainly on the radical side, though. But he's obviously had much personal experience with bad bacteria, poor flatulent fellow. I hope you're never stuck in the same room as him! Wheeeeewwwieeee! So anyway Flux, contact Flux and he'll explain the whole thing to ya!

quote: "Now clearly, these IBS experts" Flux wrote:They are?

Of course they are. Your buddy Eric is the one who originally posted this study on this BB. And you do know that Eric only posts accurate medical information from the IBS experts here, don't you? Just ask him, he'll tell ya! Erics Original Post Of Study Sincerely, Captain Colon

 

[captaincolon]

quote:Flux wrote:How is dysbacteriosis defined? Since most of the flora can't even be identified let alone grown in culture easily, how can ever know what's normal and abnormal in the gut?

Flux, this is your lucky day! I just happen to know the perfect person to help you out with your confusion about dysbacteriosis. Amazingly, his name is also Flux! His email address is at the link below, you can contact him there. I'm sure you two will get along just fine. Here's his story, in his own words:

quote:Flux #2 wrote:I'm about to receive a radical therapy for flatulence: an attempt will be made to completely sterilize my gut with antibiotics (and then re-inoculate it with ultra-mega doses of probiotics). I'm looking to find out what experiences people have had antibiotics and their flatulence levels, either tried for this problem specifically or incidentally for another condition.From what I have read so far here and elsewhere, good results have come from amoxicillin, cephalexin, and metronidazole. One person, however, reported both good and bad results with a combination of amoxicillin and metronidazole. Interestingly, I don't recall anyone reporting just bad effects.I'm also interested in other therapies tried (but I don't mean things like grossly inffective dietary therapies), such as those with probiotics (especially with details about brand and dosages and length of therapy).

Gassy Guy Flux LinkSee Flux, this other Flux knows all about the difference between "good" and "bad" intestinal bacteria, the very things you're confused about. His chosen "therapy" to get rid of the bad and re-establish the good flora is certainly on the radical side, though. But he's obviously had much personal experience with bad bacteria, poor flatulent fellow. I hope you're never stuck in the same room as him! Wheeeeewwwieeee! So anyway Flux, contact Flux and he'll explain the whole thing to ya!

quote: "Now clearly, these IBS experts" Flux wrote:They are?

Of course they are. Your buddy Eric is the one who originally posted this study on this BB. And you do know that Eric only posts accurate medical information from the IBS experts here, don't you? Just ask him, he'll tell ya! Erics Original Post Of Study Sincerely, Captain Colon

 

[captaincolon]

quote:Eric wrote:Because you have to be able to read the article carefully for one and not cherry pick what a person wants to hear or believe.becausethe conclusion was"CONCLUSION: There are intestinal flora disorders in IBS patients, which may be involved in triggering the IBS-like symptoms. IBS patients experience significant impairment in QoL, however, the impairment is not caused directly by enteric symptoms."I find it odd this is always left out when this abstarct is posted? Thats bias.

My, my Eric you really are confused, aren't you? There's no bias. The "Conclusion" you quoted above is simply the very basic summary from the study's Abstract. What I quoted is from the "Discussion" section of the complete article, which contains a much more detailed, in-depth and therefore more accurate explanation of the study's findings. There's no disagreement between the two. What I posted is simply more accurate. They say it all when they state:

quote:"Further studies are still needed. However, there was dysbacteriosis in IBS patients. Whether it is the effect or just cause of IBS remains unclear."

That says everything - They are stating that dysbacteriosis may be an effect of the IBS, OR it may actually be the "just cause" of the IBS - they just can't say for sure one way or the other. I don't see anywhere here where it says what you believe though, that dysbacteriosis DOES NOT cause IBS. Please show me where it clearly says that dysbacteriosis does not cause IBS, where they have unequivocally ruled it out - I just don't see it.The quality of life part in your quote above is also just a basic summary from the study's abstract. Here's a more complete discussion from the full article:

quote:In our study, we also found that IBS patients had significantly lower scores on all SF-36 scales with the exception of physical functioning, when compared with the age and sex-matched control group. Decrements in QoL were most pronounced in general health, role physical and vitality. However, there was no significant correlation between QoL and enteric symptoms, which might be due to the frequent presence of anxiety, depression, fatigue and anorexia in IBS patients.

You get the basic idea. But don't despair, Eric, because in the "Inflammation, Infection, and Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS): An Update" article which you posted earlier, there was a study described where IBS patients were given a Bifidobacterium probiotic which significantly improved many of their IBS symptoms, and - "The symptomatic response with Bifidobacterium was associated with parallel improvement in quality of life as assessed by using an IBS-specific instrument. A follow-up 4 weeks after discontinuation of the treatment (washout period) showed that both symptoms and quality of life returned to baseline."So, this shows that as the gut flora is improved with probiotics, the quality of life can go up too, probably in an indirect way, I'd think. As the patient feels better with less pain, the quality of life factors naturally improve due to the more positive mental state.ref.("A Role For Probiotics" section):Inflammation, Infection, and Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS): An Update

quote:Eric wrote:also what does this mean from the above study"There was no significant difference in gut flora between two subgroups"

I believe that means that the overall numbers of bacteria in the flora were about the same, but the numbers of some of the various specific strains of bacteria were different (different proportions).Now Eric, you have posted vast numbers of pages here from studies in a seeming attempt to try to convince me of something. But that's a complete waste of your time. Let me remind you that this thread isn't about what I believe. It's about what you believe, and why it differs from what the IBS experts concluded in the study you earlier posted. You do believe they are IBS experts, don't you? Of course you do, because you yourself say that you only post accurate medical information from the world's IBS experts here. So did you email them yet to inform them that they are wrong when they say dysbacteriosis MAY be the "just cause" of IBS? Do hurry, I just can't wait to see their reply! Suggestion - Maybe you could email them the studies you posted here to convince them how wrong they are.... Sincerely,Captain Colon

 

[captaincolon]

quote:Eric wrote:Because you have to be able to read the article carefully for one and not cherry pick what a person wants to hear or believe.becausethe conclusion was"CONCLUSION: There are intestinal flora disorders in IBS patients, which may be involved in triggering the IBS-like symptoms. IBS patients experience significant impairment in QoL, however, the impairment is not caused directly by enteric symptoms."I find it odd this is always left out when this abstarct is posted? Thats bias.

My, my Eric you really are confused, aren't you? There's no bias. The "Conclusion" you quoted above is simply the very basic summary from the study's Abstract. What I quoted is from the "Discussion" section of the complete article, which contains a much more detailed, in-depth and therefore more accurate explanation of the study's findings. There's no disagreement between the two. What I posted is simply more accurate. They say it all when they state:

quote:"Further studies are still needed. However, there was dysbacteriosis in IBS patients. Whether it is the effect or just cause of IBS remains unclear."

That says everything - They are stating that dysbacteriosis may be an effect of the IBS, OR it may actually be the "just cause" of the IBS - they just can't say for sure one way or the other. I don't see anywhere here where it says what you believe though, that dysbacteriosis DOES NOT cause IBS. Please show me where it clearly says that dysbacteriosis does not cause IBS, where they have unequivocally ruled it out - I just don't see it.The quality of life part in your quote above is also just a basic summary from the study's abstract. Here's a more complete discussion from the full article:

quote:In our study, we also found that IBS patients had significantly lower scores on all SF-36 scales with the exception of physical functioning, when compared with the age and sex-matched control group. Decrements in QoL were most pronounced in general health, role physical and vitality. However, there was no significant correlation between QoL and enteric symptoms, which might be due to the frequent presence of anxiety, depression, fatigue and anorexia in IBS patients.

You get the basic idea. But don't despair, Eric, because in the "Inflammation, Infection, and Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS): An Update" article which you posted earlier, there was a study described where IBS patients were given a Bifidobacterium probiotic which significantly improved many of their IBS symptoms, and - "The symptomatic response with Bifidobacterium was associated with parallel improvement in quality of life as assessed by using an IBS-specific instrument. A follow-up 4 weeks after discontinuation of the treatment (washout period) showed that both symptoms and quality of life returned to baseline."So, this shows that as the gut flora is improved with probiotics, the quality of life can go up too, probably in an indirect way, I'd think. As the patient feels better with less pain, the quality of life factors naturally improve due to the more positive mental state.ref.("A Role For Probiotics" section):Inflammation, Infection, and Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS): An Update

quote:Eric wrote:also what does this mean from the above study"There was no significant difference in gut flora between two subgroups"

I believe that means that the overall numbers of bacteria in the flora were about the same, but the numbers of some of the various specific strains of bacteria were different (different proportions).Now Eric, you have posted vast numbers of pages here from studies in a seeming attempt to try to convince me of something. But that's a complete waste of your time. Let me remind you that this thread isn't about what I believe. It's about what you believe, and why it differs from what the IBS experts concluded in the study you earlier posted. You do believe they are IBS experts, don't you? Of course you do, because you yourself say that you only post accurate medical information from the world's IBS experts here. So did you email them yet to inform them that they are wrong when they say dysbacteriosis MAY be the "just cause" of IBS? Do hurry, I just can't wait to see their reply! Suggestion - Maybe you could email them the studies you posted here to convince them how wrong they are.... Sincerely,Captain Colon

 

[captaincolon]

quote:Talissa wrote:Sorry for butting in here Capt C

You're not butting in! Please go ahead and post all you want, I always enjoy and learn a lot from your posts. You're much better at research than I am.

Hey Kel, I trust your Brain-Gut Axis / Neurotransmitter system transplant is still working great and you continue to be pretty much free of IBS.

I agree though when you say it would be foolish to completely ignore the emotional aspect of illness. I'm a long time meditator myself, and find the practice indespensable for helping control the pain of IBS, and to help deal with the negative emotional impact of it. -Captain Colon

 

[captaincolon]

quote:Talissa wrote:Sorry for butting in here Capt C

You're not butting in! Please go ahead and post all you want, I always enjoy and learn a lot from your posts. You're much better at research than I am.

Hey Kel, I trust your Brain-Gut Axis / Neurotransmitter system transplant is still working great and you continue to be pretty much free of IBS.

I agree though when you say it would be foolish to completely ignore the emotional aspect of illness. I'm a long time meditator myself, and find the practice indespensable for helping control the pain of IBS, and to help deal with the negative emotional impact of it. -Captain Colon