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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Most of the time now, my IBS symptoms are significantly tempered with the use of hypnotherapy. However, occasionally I still have severe bouts of diarrhea. One such occurrence was today at work after lunch (and all I ate was turkey rice soup). First a brief background. In addition to IBS, I have FMS & CFS as well as parasympathetic malfunction and vaso vagal disturbances.After the episode of diarrhea today, I began cramping, shaking, feeling cold all over..... (as usual).... and then I experienced more of the vaso vagal thing.... where I felt lightheaded, my bp dropped... and I felt as if my face were "puffy" and my entire G.I. tract was spasming. Then the hypoglycemia was triggered... so I had to ingest some sugar real quickly.... I kept feeling as if I were about to pass out.... I even grabbed onto the door jams to my office and at one point kneeled on the floor just in case.As unnerving as these episodes can be..... and they are less frequent since I've been utilizing the hypno...... I have learned how to cope with them, my doc has told me what they are... so I know not to fear them..... and I can usually get through them without panicking or anything else serious happening. Being a CBT and biofeedback veteran definitely helps to put things into focus when such an "attack" is occurring, but it is still nonetheless most distressing.I work at a hospital with lots of nurses, techs, therapists and other medical personnel and they are aware of my diagnoses... and do offer concern and help if I ask for it. (God, but I'm lucky to have the job that I have!)I also intermittently experience this after chiropractic adjustments, but I've learned to expect them from time to time. They definitely happen following a deep tissue massage. I suspect it may be related to the fibro?I think part of it may also be related to the involuntary "bearing down" that occurs with a severe episode of diarrhea. I also can only void about 50% of my bladder without assisting with some pushing.... and that could also aggravate the vaso vagal reactions.And as odd as this sounds... what helps me the most when these "attacks" come on.... is being able to get horizontal....relax... rest... and yes, even cry.... somehow when those tears are released.... the body instantly begins to feel better.I just wondered if anyone else ever experiences anything like this.... and if you do..... have you told your doctor about it, have they suggested parasympathetic involvement and how do you cope with it?I am scheduled for another full physical exam in a couple of months (with my lifetime doctor whom my insurance now refuses to pay for).... and she has already told me about the parasympathetic probabability.... and I am now getting concerned that since my physical symptoms are progressively worsening that I may not want to hear her next diagnosis (I am thinking Lupus).Not scared yet... but frustrated... and at times most distressedEvie
 

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Dear Essence Tries, Bless you a million times for your post!! I am new to this board but not to IBS(11 years). I experience the exact same symptoms thinking food allergies, stroke, diabetes, and all tests come out negative for any of them. I have been so frustrated!! And lo and behold your post came to my attention! You mentioned that your dr. told you what this was so that you did not fear them so much. Please share with me what explaination was given for these episodes? It would be a great healing experience for me to have some idea.
 

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Are you sure you don't have food allergies? It sounds very similar although usually it wouldn't get better on it's own. I get very similar symptoms from anaphylactic reactions.
 

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Essence, I get hot flashes and cold chills during attacks. I've seen many others mention similar whole-body responses.How long are your attacks? Is it possible you are reacting to dehydration and low blood sugar worsened by the attack? I'm also prone to hypoglycemia and in times of IBS attacks don't eat as well, or the food goes through my system much faster than expected and I don't seem to get full benefit from it. I also know from a glucose tolerance test that my body sometimes overreacts to large influxes of glucose and flushes it out rapidly, leaving me with a lower blood sugar level than before the glucose! Perhaps the attack triggers a similar response in you?
 

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Essence you are never alone, many like me read your messages and sympathize with you but we can't find the right answers to help you. Most of us have our own problems and come here for solace or in hope that we will find some answers. Happy Easter to all you IBSers.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
EssenceTries,God what you describe sounds like the way I react to Wine-which I'm allergic to. Its actually the sulfates in wine and I'm severely allergic to then including when they are added to foods-your soup didn't have anything ending in sulfate or sulfite did it?What you described sounds like an allergy of some sort. If not to sulfate then to something else-yes maybe gluten or something else like MSG. Turkey is treated with lots of stuff so... I don't think what you had is a "normal" ibs response.-Susan
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Wow...first there were no responses, then this morning I just happened to see that there were some responses to this thread. Thank you! Charlie.....It's fine if you don't have the answers, but just knowing others experience similar things helps in itself.Cynthia.... My doc tell me that these episodes are from some sort of vaso vagal disturbance (and I have recently read articles linking vagas nerve activity to IBS. She also tells me that somehow the parasympathetic nervous system is linked to all of this (this is the part of the nervous system that controls involuntary or smooth muscle movements such as stomach, bowel, respirations, heart beat... etc.)Katy.....I've been previously tested for just about every kind of allergy in existence, I've been through the desensitization process, but finally had to give up because I kept experiencing systemic allergic reactions requiring medical attention. There is almost always a high level of histamine in my body. Certain foods upset my system, and can cause me problems for up to 3 days after I ingest them, but I pretty much know what they are and avoid them.I've been reading also about links to this kind of activity with fibromyalgia. The worst of these episodes occurs following physical manipulation such as massage, chiropractic adjustment... etc. But I still engage for the overall long-term beneficial effects of both of those treatments.Luna...... the attacks are usually about half an hour to an hour in length.... and abate as soon as I eat a combination of simple carbohydrate and protein.... (just one or the other doesn't help)I am late for work but I will talk about this more later this evening.Thanx for your responses, Evie
 

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Ahh Evie... ______________________________"After the episode of diarrhea today, I began cramping, shaking, feeling cold all over..... (as usual).... and then I experienced more of the vaso vagal thing.... where I felt lightheaded, my bp dropped... and I felt as if my face were "puffy" and my entire G.I. tract was spasming. Then the hypoglycemia was triggered... so I had to ingest some sugar real quickly.... I kept feeling as if I were about to pass out.... I even grabbed onto the door jams to my office and at one point kneeled on the floor just in case." ________________________________man I wish I was not out of time...this is a very good basis for describing where these symptoms of systemic immune activation come from. These symptoms are related to the fact that, prior to and during your d-episodes, there is a pattern of multiple-mediator release both within your gut itslf as well as within your "circulation"...and different types of mediators have different "side effects" which can either directly (through direct action on certain body structures) or indirectly (through action on the nerveous systeme which then responds by activating certain structures.But I gotta run....O am going to have to try to find a copy of some almost-realted prior explanation and slap it in out of context and home it fits well enough to convey the primary concept of where these intestinal and extraintestinal symptoms come from.Also, I posted this morning on another thread the reason that multi-modality therapy works better than single-modality therapy...so the good resposne to hypno could be enhanced by isolating a patient-specific diet plan for your specific sensitivities to things that you ingest. Put the tow together and these symptoms can be reduced. It can be tricky for some patients, even when we go beyond the old fashioned intake tracking and into newer technologies as there are still (less and less) some types of reactions that cannot be detected without going dircetly into the body to isolate them. But we can isolate most of them using a combination of things.Anyway...lemme see what I can clip and paste before I run....Oh yeah...according the the "link library": this thread was about "systemic symptoms": http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/u...=1;DaysPrune=30 Wish I had more time to chat...
MNL
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
No doubt it's the penicillan in the turkey that makes the Wisconsin variety so unpalatable?
(Most commercial eggs are also dipped in penicillan to keep them fresh.)Not sure if I am truly allergic to Penicillan as I can tolerate Cephalexin (a Penicillan-derivative).I already know that I am sensitive to MSG and avoid it religiously....
Not a Dorrito-eater here.Ok... Mike.... I am all ears... or gut... or whatever....
Just please don't make your explanations too long or technical... I'm a somewhat bright lady, but there is the FMS/CFS brain fog to contend with, ya know......
It seems I am always out of time here.... I need to get to bed because I have to teach at 6:45 a.m.RATS !OK... true confession time........ when I am taking antidepressants, even though they cause other problems for me.... I don't seem to have as many of these episodes that I just described above. Any idea what might account for that? Eric? Is there a Serotonin/mast cell story behind this that maybe I've missed?Yes, for many years I have also had issues with transient hypoglycemia.The only true anaphylactic reactions that I've had required serious epinephrine treatment... and like.......REAL FAST....... RIGHT NOW ....... because my throat was closing on me and I was covered in hives
And on that note.... I need to depart....for my bed and Mike Mahoney (HAH!)....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzThanx for any help or explanations that might be forthcoming. I am now quite certain that I am not the only one who suffers from such episodes.Evie
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Mike,Did you intend to post that link? If so, what is its significance? (before you answer, click on it)Evie
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Mike,
quote: multiple-mediator release both within your gut itslf as well as within your "circulation"...
I want to talk about this with you. And yes, I've always said that a global approach to treatment is the ticket. There is something really weird that goes on inside of me and I need/want answers. Evie
 

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Evie, I meant the turkey literally. There's nothing myserious about it. The Wisconsin reference was somewhat of an inside joke but I've known since childhood that turkey tends to cause diarrhea for everyone, not just those with IBS.tom
 

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Hi Evie....Sorry once again had a several-day hiatus (not herniated
) due to being busy with this silly thing called a "job".I will be back shortly to read what has been posted and see what I missed.
MNLPSOh Cr-p...the noted in the "link library" must be worng or I captured the wrong URL somehere along the line.SORRYY....duh....I wonder how many others are junk...be backOk here I be....and RATS it is 10 to 9 and I have a 9 am meeting.BUT..first, here is a little "boilerplate" for "diarrheics" which I posted on another thread (the text part) which I hope serves as a simple introduction to the concepts the docs and dieticians I work with try to convey, and our/their integrative view from both the literature, alot of application clinically, and the expericne gained from years of trying to develop and hone a proprietrary-technology based approach to HOW to look for EVERY possible way that any food opr chemical can "trigger" either an imemdiate reaction or a DELAYED reaction and/or a DOSE DEPENDENT reaction in an IBS patient.Especially in IBS victims who also sufer some closely related common comorbid conditions like migraine or FMS or CFS where systemic immune activation is at least in part responsible for some of the suffering.In people like yourself, with these conditions, for SOME REASON (or even reason"S") peoples systemic immune system (the circulating cells, of many types) and even the part of the system which is anchored in various body tissues like the gut wall and connective tissue and many other places(mast cells)can be provoked to react by things which should not provoke them (hypersensitivity).Foods, chemicals in foods, even some types of inhaed chemicals...AND these reactions CANNOT BE TRACED to the classic markers of ALLERGY type hypersensitivity. When you remove the few who DO have "allergy" to things cvausing their symptoms you are left with a very large grousp of people with these symptoms who can be found by various means to suffer from all sorts of different types and combinations of types of, well, "local and systemic immune activation".it can be reproduced in direct response to some patient-specific food challenge or chemical challenge SO IT IS TREATABLE by simple avoidance. This is prophlylaxis not cure as you do not address the physiologic CAUSE, rather isolate and avoid the EVENT which results in the bad chemiclas being released which casue SYMPTOMS to appear.Make sense?So take a read of this first.... _______________________________________General overview of this conundrum....The difficulty with managing diarrheic episodes in those people who suffer IBS with this symptom component is that what the patient and physician need is an approach which integrates an understanding of, and treatments for, each of the multiple mechanisms which can lead to the "twitchy-bowel" these folks (and the folks in this thread) experience.Once "upregulated", regardless of the precursor event, unless the mechanisms which keep the bowel upregulated are addressed with some plan designed to both eliminate chemical sources of the gut upregulation by avoiding that which elicits their formation, and reduce the self-fulfilling effects of exaggerated responses to both anticipatory and actual internal and external psychological stress events, the pattern is rarely Fully subdued.In simple terms, described in detail in both the collective medical research literature and in books compiled from both research and integrative therapy of IBS victims by physicians and dieticians, the concensus is that the best and most effective approach to achieving the maximum degree of symptom reduction in the largest numbers of patients with these kinds of symptoms is to integrate several very specific modalities:1. open and trusting relationship between the physician and patient is essential to success2. dietary modification as specific to the individual patient needs as possible (so you address that patients specific needs for dietary change, not just general guidelines which may not even apply to that patient as they are based solely on probabilities, not actual analysis of each of the mechanisms which may result in upregulation of the patients gut and thus her specific symptoms)3. psychological therapy which is as specific to the patients acceptance as possible (so the patient will actually follow the regimen..be it a CBT or HT program, for example, needs to fit the patients predisposition to Do it)4. symptom specific pharmacotherapy adjusted based on the patients response to ongoing treatment with Modality #2 and #3 above.The fewer, and less patient-needs specific, the modalities are which are used to treat the patient, the less positive the treatment outcomes are.So it is in the patients best interest to seek out a caregiver who first ascribes to the above set of principals, and then actually practices them with patients they diagnose as suffering IBS when presented with symptom such as those described here.Again, any single modality, if done correctly, will produce varying degrees of symptom reduction/remission depending upon an individual patient response, adherence to the treatment, and how patient specific it is made. So some will do well, some so-so, and some will do poorly.But if you can find a physician or dietician who approaches these problems from an integrative treatment approach, and uses tools to make the modalities as patient-needs-specific as possible the patient has the greatest chance for the greatest degree of symptoms reduction.This concept, and some of the tools that can be sued by physicians to implement this Disease Management concept can be understood if one reads at least on simple book and then looks at a diagram in one article.If they make sense, then the patient will understand the validity of the above statements. You may then also wish to either go further in studying how the DM appraoch is evolving in integrative therapy of IBS, or you may wish to seek out experiences and discussions of others with similar problems and what results they have achieved.If so, I recommend the following book first, if one wants to just choose one hwich has the greatest overall impact:IBS: A DOCTORS PLAN FOR CHRONIC DIGESTIVE TROUBLESBy Gerard Guillory, M.D.; Vanessa Ameen, M.D.; Paul Donovan, M.D.; Jack Martin, Ph.D. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/088...3369143-6824157 I also recommend the following article be obtained, more for the value of a very clear and simple diagram which shows the interactions between multiple body systems which can and do result in the gut specific and global symptoms experienced by IBS patients in this subpopulation (about 2/3 of them when diagnosed on a symptom based criteria)...thus even patient with no medical background can visualize the symptom creating events which can occur, and the "loop effect" created along the various physiologic axis which control organ function, and thus understand the need for an integrative approach.Look carefully and patiently at �Figure 1" in the following article. It is an easy way of visualizing some of the interactive elements of the psychoneuroimmunoendocexocrine mechanisms in IBS. The title is a bit misleading as the tutorial takes a more integrative approach rather than simply the pathways of dietary provocation. This is why I recommend it.Here is the link, as I recall one needs to "purchase" the whole article (what�s free anymore?) but is a few worthwhile bucks:Alimentary Pharmacology and Therapeutics Vol. 15 Issue 4 Page 439 April 2001 Food Hypersensitivity and Irritable Bowel Syndrome S. Zar, D. Kumar, M. J. Benson http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/servlet/u...36.2001.00951.x ________________________________If you read the article and book listed above, in the context of all else you have learned, you will see that indeed there are ways that, for example, some "primary" event can happen which is rroted in some abnormal immune responses for some reason, which then results in upregulation of everything from the gut to the circulatory system to the endocrine system to the nervous system, AND VICE VERSA (as is well described to a great degree and often in the lierature as it is a focus of drug research whic is well funded), you can have a "primary event" which is for lack of a better word "psychoneurologic". THAt can then lead to upregulation of the endocrine and immune system.This is occassionally referred to as the 'Top Down' putative mechanism vs the 'Bottom Up' putative mechanism(theoretical is easier, but researcehrs like more obscure terms like putative).The important fact when it comes to patient care is to not get distracted by the debate over which may be the primary event in a given patient and which may be secondary, becsue the bottom line for right now is that a) there is no SIMPLE way of determing that yet and
either way the treatment regimen is the same UNTIL some "curative" is contrived for BOTH possible origins.Current therapy is symptomatic relief, and the best approach is an approach based on the emerging principles of Disease Management...hence the short description I started with.I hope that gives you something to turn over in your mind for the moment...as they are in the lobby!
so I gotsta go.But if you do take a few bucks and read Guiloory's book, just skip all the other ones a recommdn for now, just pick this one...and then also get that article and look at that diagram you will see 90% of what the integrated symptoms generating mechanisms are. You can see the closed LOOP which we must BREAK, at least so far in the IBS-d type population...and som eof the comorbidities...to et the greatest degree of symptkm reduction while work continues on isolating specific CAUSES (pathogenesis) so we can work backward then to actual "cures" for the things we cannot yet cure (we can fix some, like dysbiosis, if it is the cause of the patients symptoms...but even this remains tricky to both diagnose and treat but there have been successes).Sorry if I wrote too fast and got to technical. I DO undersatnd the fog-symptom...when I sued to get my IBS epsiodes that was one of the first systemic symptoms...even I could not understnad my own technobabble much less anything else beyond "Caeser Salad please".Later!
MNLPSSo sorry for any typos too no time to run the spell checker
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanx Mike... for taking time to explain this to me in a way that my "pee brain" can absorb. Actually it isn't a pee brain... it's just that my limbic system, FMS, CFS, brain fog, GAD and a few other things often cloud my ability to assimilate lots of technical information all at once. My brain and body, in effect, become overwhelmed very easily. I will probably read and re-read what you've posted here several times and visit the links several times before I can fully understand everything that you are attempting to share with me.You're such a good guy....
Thanx for putting up with me....
Is there an explanation that you know of for why the episodes I described diminish when I take low almost untherapeutic doses of SSRI's? This is a huge source of stress for me. I always feel better initially when I start taking a new SSRI... but after a few weeks... it does a 360 on me and I have to stop them again because of the agitation that they cause.... yet for those first 30 days or so... I feel quite good and don't experience these episodes.I guess maybe I am just plain one medical or scientific faux pas? And so often I lose heart if I take to heart all that is going on with me .... so I tend to avoid it.... move into areas of pleasant distraction to quell some of the pain that I encounter... both physical and emotional.There is no doctor in this small Wisconsin town who would even have an inkling of how to address these issues. I've been the circuit. Maybe I've given up on it? Instead... I just tend to do the best that I can with what I have... albeit imperfect. I cry a lot because it seems to release toxins as well as negative thoughts/feelings. Thank God for the HYPNO !!JOAN OF ARC.... I am so sorry... I missed responding to what you posted!! My attention span is somewhat akin to a slot machine... always roving....
No doubt some kind of allergy or allergies are involved... but based on all of my diagnoses.... there is probably much more going on.Sometimes I feel like giving up..... but I know it's just this blasted limbic system malfunction with which I have to live every day. So even when I feel like giving up.... I force myself to plunge and do stuff. It's the only thing that keeps me going.Tom.... I guess I was so serious about gathering some answers that I overlooked the joke potential where the turkey is concerned....
Thanx for being kind to me about it.......
And thank you again, Mike.... for trying to help me. Most days I think the only help for me will be in the next world perhaps?? This one isn't quite conducive to my situation.If I didn't have all of the loving people in my life whom I have..... I'd probably be 6-feet under by now... or at the very least living in a box somewhere under a local bridge. Speaking of that, one of my son's best friends is an older homeless man to whom he recently gave his coat.That's my boy !!
Time to re-group here, I think.You guys are all the best.... and Mike, I WILL get back to you on this.Evie
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
P.S. Did I mention that I also have adult A.D.D. ?? ...but in the immortal words of Ringo Starr ........ "I get by with a little help from my friends........ Do you need anybody?... I just need someone to love............ Could it be anybody? I just need someone to Love.... I get by with a little help from my friends..... "
 
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